Chasing the lands is stupid... What do you think?

[Alexander-M]

^^^ AMAZING! ^^^
I had not noticed that bit of information: Over 4,500 views in less than a day!

Alex
PS: Yes, I enjoyed reading all of it, I am no expert and don't know any better, so I use a combination of what has been presented.

 

[The boogalorian]

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Question from a newbie re-loader. Erik stated that Jam is neck tension dependent. I don't fully understand why. I use the Wheeler Method and base my CBTO on "touch" point....not what I would cal "jam."

Is it because a light neck tension could move the bullet vs heavier neck tension where it wouldn't? Or is it something more technical?

Yes, you've got the right idea. More grip on the bullet will simply allow you to go further into the lands before the bullet pushes back in the case.

 

[Daddymac]

I have seen a few, very few, of Erik's videos, and the information can be thought provoking, it is good to think outside the box and to question the norm, this is how we advance.

The delivery of the information, not my favorite.

 

[expiper]

Watch video. Let me know what you think.

do we get a free T-shirt for watching this,,,Roger

 

[davidjoe]

The root of the question is, does a bullet's relationship to it's first point of contact at the lands correlate to the the tune? I think Erik is making the point that in his experience it does not. In that case, maintaining that relationship of bullet to first point of touch is undesirable.

Lapua and Berger, as two examples load factory match ammo that is not tuned to any rifle’s weight, barrel contour, reamer, chamber, twist or freebore. Lapua’s 6 BR ammo will easily clean midrange strings in any gun that can, although it’s tuned to none of them. Try them, it’s ridiculous.

Erik and the Bulletin recently posted how well these premium match factory loads can shoot at long range, also. Yet can they be in every gun’s accuracy node? On seating depth alone, these match loads look extremely deeply seated. How can the charge and seating depth not make a bigger difference, unless, so long as it’s all the consistent, it just doesn’t.

 

[cw308]

I'm sure we all watched every video , bought every gadget and tried every method . We settled on one that works for us , getting into a dueling contest with someone that said it doesn't matter . It's like talking politics or better yet the word headspace . Shoot straight and hit what your aiming at.

Chris

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Lapua and Berger, as two examples load factory match ammo that is not tuned to any rifle’s weight, barrel contour, reamer, chamber, twist or freebore. Lapua’s 6 BR ammo will easily clean midrange strings in any gun that can, although it’s tuned to none of them. Try them, it’s ridiculous.

Erik and the Bulletin recently posted how well these premium match factory loads can shoot at long range, also. Yet can they be in every gun’s accuracy node? On seating depth alone, these match loads look extremely deeply seated. How can the charge and seating depth not make a bigger difference, unless, so long as it’s all the consistent, it just doesn’t.

A well built 6br will clean a midrange target when its out of tune. A well tuned 6br at 600 will group 1.5" or better. I dont know if the factory loads will shoot 1.5" and smaller, I would not be surprised if they did in some guns. Theres no doubt a long jump seems more forgiving, I dont know that Id say it has the same raw accuracy potential but every barrel is different.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

It tells you more then just that:
1... it also yields amounts of throat advancement
2... it also yields relevance indifference between bullets/ogives in relation to seating location of the lands
3... it can also tell you amounts of carbon fouling to the throat
A little more then just a reference point to enjoy over coffee !.!.!

The question is, are any of those things valuable and relevant? There's lots of things that you can measure, inspect, etc... that people do just because they can. Doesn't necessarily make them useful. Personally, I don't find any of those measures to be relevant/valuable for what I do.

EDIT: I'll limit my comments to 7MM/180 Hybrids since that is what I have the most experience with in terms of data collection. In more limited experience with other calibers, I have not experienced much that would convince me that chasing the lands is needed, but now we're into the realm of my opinion, rather than hard experience.

 

[Kevin57]

Jay,

I'm guessing you don't shoot any of the BR disciplines. The things you listed generally have an effect on the Rifle's tune. In the case of carbon, the barrel's level of fowling will affect accuracy. Without a clean barrel and a tune that is accurate in your rifle you will not be competitive.

For dear hunting I agree with you...it doesn't matter. Maybe...as much.

Kevin

 

[Oleg S]

Jay,

I'm guessing you don't shoot any of the BR disciplines. The things you listed generally have an effect on the Rifle's tune. In the case of carbon, the barrel's level of fowling will affect accuracy. Without a clean barrel and a tune that is accurate in your rifle you will not be competitive.

For dear hunting I agree with you...it doesn't matter. Maybe...as much.

Kevin

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/jay-christopherson/

 

[lpreddick]

I thought that seating depth is trying to get the bullet to exit at the time the muzzle is the quietest => the reason for an off the lands being more accurate is because it's arriving at the muzzle at a quieter time?

Several years ago, Chris Long wrote a paper discussing this process...adjust bullet seating depth such that the bullet arrives at the muzzle when the " shock wave" is at the breech. There are several such positions for most bullets, from jumping great distances to, yes, jam. Chris's paper is very informative.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Jay,

I'm guessing you don't shoot any of the BR disciplines. The things you listed generally have an effect on the Rifle's tune. In the case of carbon, the barrel's level of fouling will affect accuracy. Without a clean barrel and a tune that is accurate in your rifle you will not be competitive.

For dear hunting I agree with you...it doesn't matter. Maybe...as much.

Kevin

I can agree with the things in bold. But we're talking about "the amount of carbon fouling in the throat", which I defy someone to tell me how you will measure that with a bullet-based gage. Please don't bother to describe your voodoo method to me, because I won't buy it anyway and I certainly won't waste my time trying to validate it. Not sure that anyone here would argue with "a tune that is accurate in your rifle". Not sure how that comment is relevant to what I posted as it's a generic statement that doesn't really advance any sort of contrary argument. Gonna have to disagree with the rest of what you said.

 

[Kevin57]

Jay,

A careful reading of my post would reveal it did not say that that one could determine the amount of carbon in the throat of a barrel with a barrel based gauge. Nor do I believe that.
All of the items GENERALLY have an effect on the rifle's tune and overall accuracy. Nothing more or less. I don't do voodoo...I do bore scope. A buildup of carbon in the throat will affect accuracy. How one arrives at the seating depth, a clean barrel or the amount of throat erosion is up to the shooter. All of the items listed are relevant. Clearly Jay is a great shooter, I knew of his success with the service rifle. I was unaware of his success as an F Class shooter. My apologies Jay, for my ignorance. I do stand behind what I wrote in my post. (Except the BR comment ) Not any other conclusions that someone might have inferred. The only thing I know for sure is nobody has is all figured out.
K

 

[Erik Cortina]

Erik - Hypothetical question for you...

Lets say you're mid barrel life shooting 180s or 184s and you run out of the original lot of bullets and need to switch to a new one. Are you starting from jam minus .020, or just working off the old node..maybe doing .012 forward of the node and working .024 back..something like that?

I load about 0.006 to 0.009” on each side of my current seating depth and test.

 

[Highpower-FClass]

Loading ammunition for precision shooting reminds me about the old quote about advertising

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half" - Jon Wanamaker

Repurposed for developing precision loads:

"Half of the time I spend on reloading is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half"

Except for sorting Varget kernels by hue, girth and length. I know that part makes a big difference.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Jay,

I'm guessing you don't shoot any of the BR disciplines. The things you listed generally have an effect on the Rifle's tune. In the case of carbon, the barrel's level of fowling will affect accuracy. Without a clean barrel and a tune that is accurate in your rifle you will not be competitive.

For dear hunting I agree with you...it doesn't matter. Maybe...as much.

Kevin

How is knowing precisely where your lands necessary for precision?

Think of it this way. If I gave you a rifle and told you to work out a load for such rifle, and I told you the max COAL for that cartridge is x.xxx”, and told you that you had to go straight into load development (no finding the lands). Could you not tune that rifle to its maximum potential?
I’m almost certain that anyone with some decent knowledge about precision reloading could tune the rifle without ever knowing where the lands are. But I don’t know, I’m just a deer hunter like @Jay Christopherson

 

[tvaught]

I want to know who gave Erik a picture of my last 1000 yard target to put on his shirt.

 

[Kevin57]

Wow Erik,

How in the world did you infer from my post I disagreed with your method? If you start with a jam or Wheeler’s method a consistent OAL is vital to tuning. Really, you need a starting point to arrive at a COAL that keeps you in the OAL box so to speak. Never once in my post was the word lands mentioned. You could start with an arbitrary OAL and load longer and shorter until the maximum accuracy window was determined. I’m not sure if you guys need more fiber in your diet or you are reading someone else’s post.
Do you need a clean barrel to have peak accuracy? I think so, do you not clean your barrel?
Does a big carbon ring help a uniform release of a bullet? I think that a build up of carbon in the throat is detrimental.
Do you need to tune? I do.

Erik, that was all I said. All of those measurements or inspections may be helpful. Your mileage may vary. Read my original post. I was man enough to admit I was ignorant of Jay’s accomplishments and apologized on this forum.

You own everything else.

K

 

[hoz53]

Watch video. Let me know what you think.

Thanks for sharing that