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Chasing the lands is stupid... What do you think?

argh said:
Going through again what you put up on here and in your video, i might be as bold to make the following observations.
1. There are many ways to find a seating depth that works for your own particular case, barrel/chamber, style of shooting, and projectile choice. Some people find the distance to the lands (call it what you will jam, kiss, touch, etc) and go from there - in, or out, some start at mag length and work in. I think most experienced reloaders know how to do this.
2. As the barrel wears, we adjust our load. Be it charge, tuner, seating depth, or combinations of all. If we use a datum to check in on (distance from lands) thats just one way. If we gradually increase seating length and test, thats another way.

There is nothing inherently wrong with what you say or put forward. Its the WAY YOU DO IT.

When you believe what you say is the only way to do a particular task, and you say (or yell) that anyone that does it different is STUPID, then you have just lost that part of your audience.

Myself, i read what others do, i test things, i test again, i go against popular opinion to test alternates again, and i make my own educated decisions on what does and doesnt work for ME.. because what works for me and my rifle to get good scores is what matters. This is the engineer training in me i guess.

If your intended audience is the inexperienced reloader that just wants to be told how to reload without engaging their brain. I think you nailed it. Well done and you will get many thanks on your youtube vid. But on this forum and with experienced competitive shooters, you will get alot of people use different methods and will rightly take offence when you tell them they are STUPID, or their process which works for them is STUPID....

you have then doubled down with the above post patronising members of this forum because you think they dont understand your method. Which i think most people DO understand your method, they 1. Use a different method that works for them, and 2. Dont like someone YELLING patronising comments in videos, and they immediately switch off when you start ranting, yelling, and telling people thier methods are STUPID.

Good luck all in your shooting endeavours, wishinig you all tight groups with whatever load development method you choose
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1. I didn’t say my way was the only way.
2. From the comments, there are some that don’t understand the method I described. If that doesn’t apply to you, then I wasn’t talking to you.
3. I wasn’t yelling, however, you seem to Not have such an issue with what am saying as much as how I’m saying it. Lol
4. You say you read how others do it and then test to confirm. Will you be testing the method I described?
5. Does the method I describe make sense to you? Instead of thinking “I seat my bullets at 0.025” off the lands”, instead saying “my rifle shoots well from 2.150 - 2.156, so I seat at 2.155”
 
So the crux of the hypothesis (and this has been posted prior by another member) seems to be that throat erosion (however measured) and the window of seating depths for an accuracy node do not advance at a 1:1 rate. Or if they do, there are issues with the accuracy of measurement for throat erosion that effectively makes the measurement meaningless in this context.

I always stand in awe of Eriks credentials when it comes to topics on precision shooting but I still need to ask whether there exists enough data from other shooters to validate this? As a relatively novice shooter I don’t have the barrel and round count to get enough statistical robustness from my own data.
 
Erik Cortina said:
1. I didn’t say my way was the only way.
2. From the comments, there are some that don’t understand the method I described. If that doesn’t apply to you, then I wasn’t talking to you.
3. I wasn’t yelling, however, you seem to Not have such an issue with what am saying as much as how I’m saying it. Lol
4. You say you read how others do it and then test to confirm. Will you be testing the method I described?
5. Does the method I describe make sense to you? Instead of thinking “I seat my bullets at 0.025” off the lands”, instead saying “my rifle shoots well from 2.150 - 2.156, so I seat at 2.155”
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response Eric, I'll try and give a fair response to your questions and comments.
1. No, but you did say its stupid to chase the lands, effectively rubishing that method. Stupid generally being a derogatory term.
2. I understand , i may not agree.
3. In this wonderful world of the intrawebby, it is hard to convey the tone of our language when we type. By using CAPITALS, thats the universally accepted way of yelllling in text conversations. Check the title to your youtube vid.
4. At the moment no, i vary my seating depth periodically. Sometimes just upping the seating depth a few thou, sometimes going back to scratch and checking all measurements again. My 308 is pretty stable at the moment, and my dasher is very low round count and hasnt really moved. Out of interest, i went out to the shed today, and confirmed on my main rifle what my seating depth is roughly where i want it in relation to previous testing. Doesnt really matter though as its on tune at the moment. I have not adjusted seating depth in the last 500 or so rounds.
5. My seating dies are set for the projectiles i use. For me its winding out periodically, and checking measurements of the same projectile.
 
Just remember guys it is all about what works for you. What i have learned is there are lots of ways to skin this cat. No single right or wrong way. Some people break this down into data points, Very detailed, intricate record keeping. Some use simple effective although somewhat rough methods to accomplish the same thing. And there are people all in between the two. If there was only one way wouldn't this be a boring sport. Follow the recipe and your results are assured. In this sport the top shooters In the country can't even agree on how to clean a barrel.

Just remember it's what works for you. Try the things you read about here. If they work keep them. If they don't then discard them But don't put down someone else's methods just because you found them not to work. Learning to shoot is an evolution. Start with the basics and build on it. Having a rifle that can show your improvement is step one. You can do all the advanced brass prep and everything else and if you don't have the rifle to show it you will see no improvement.
 
No , we understand, it’s just most of us are advanced reloaders and aren’t the intended audience . We like to pick apart guys trying to teach use things we already know .
 
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argh said:
Thanks for the response Eric, I'll try and give a fair response to your questions and comments.
1. No, but you did say its stupid to chase the lands, effectively rubishing that method. Stupid generally being a derogatory term.
2. I understand , i may not agree.
3. In this wonderful world of the intrawebby, it is hard to convey the tone of our language when we type. By using CAPITALS, thats the universally accepted way of yelllling in text conversations. Check the title to your youtube vid.
4. At the moment no, i vary my seating depth periodically. Sometimes just upping the seating depth a few thou, sometimes going back to scratch and checking all measurements again. My 308 is pretty stable at the moment, and my dasher is very low round count and hasnt really moved. Out of interest, i went out to the shed today, and confirmed on my main rifle what my seating depth is roughly where i want it in relation to previous testing. Doesnt really matter though as its on tune at the moment. I have not adjusted seating depth in the last 500 or so rounds.
5. My seating dies are set for the projectiles i use. For me its winding out periodically, and checking measurements of the same projectile.
Click to expand...

Ah, the title is what has you “up in arms” with the video. Now we’re getting somewhere.

The thumbnail and titles in YouTube are meant to grab your attention and make you click the video. The title is only to get you to watch the content. Once you click the video, then the content in the video is my opinion. To sum it up, the title is meant to “bait” you into clicking and watching the video. That’s where the term “click bait” comes from. “Don’t judge a book by its cover” applies also to YouTube videos, except in YouTube it’s title and thumbnail instead of cover. :)

Take
 
jelenko said:
That was my take on the video also.\

I did find interesting the statement that seating depth windows are 3/1000's apart. Berger's article on seating depth seemed to say they are wider.
Click to expand...

The windows are about .006 to .010 wide. However the space between the windows are big .030 to .040. Kinda like walking down a hallway. Each window is .006 to .010 but the space to get to the next one is .030 to .040

Berger says start at jam which is basically -.010 in the rifling based on neck tension is you can keep the bullet there. Then move back in .030 or .040 increments to find the window.

All erik does it backs offs .020 from the longest BTO which your neck tensions allows the bullet to be set. Then moves back from there in .003. It makes sense.
 
I guess I don't understand why anyone would get fussed up about this. Just because it doesn't fit in to your mold doesn't make it wrong. Erik is doing nothing more than what a pile of SR benchrest shooters have always done. Pick the neck tension of choice, jam the bullet, take a measurement, then load from that reference point. It's just a reference! Simple and easy.

This isn't one size fits all. If you want to take a lot of notes and dimensions and monitor every aspect of your barrel as it ages, then power to you. If you want to keep it simple and use a method like this, then power to you too. As long as you can stay on top of it, either way works.
 
Erik - Hypothetical question for you...

Lets say you're mid barrel life shooting 180s or 184s and you run out of the original lot of bullets and need to switch to a new one. Are you starting from jam minus .020, or just working off the old node..maybe doing .012 forward of the node and working .024 back..something like that?
 
jimmymac said:
I guess I don't understand why anyone would get fussed up about this. Just because it doesn't fit in to your mold doesn't make it wrong. Erik is doing nothing more than what a pile of SR benchrest shooters have always done. Pick the neck tension of choice, jam the bullet, take a measurement, then load from that reference point. It's just a reference! Simple and easy.

This isn't one size fits all. If you want to take a lot of notes and dimensions and monitor every aspect of your barrel as it ages, then power to you. If you want to keep it simple and use a method like this, then power to you too. As long as you can stay on top of it, either way works.
Click to expand...
This is exactly right.
 
eric32 said:
The windows are about .006 to .010 wide. However the space between the windows are big .030 to .040. Kinda like walking down a hallway. Each window is .006 to .010 but the space to get to the next one is .030 to .040

Berger says start at jam which is basically -.010 in the rifling based on neck tension is you can keep the bullet there. Then move back in .030 or .040 increments to find the window.

All erik does it backs offs .020 from the longest BTO which your neck tensions allows the bullet to be set. Then moves back from there in .003. It makes sense.
Click to expand...
Ah. Got it. Makes sense! Thanks!
 
When you into reloading making accurate repeatable measurements . Knowing your barrels chamber from bolt face to datum and bolt face to ogive . Changes in case volume when seating longer or deeper , same with jump , touch or jam. It's good to try different systems but I think knowing the ware in the lands is important . As much as node development. Now my accurate is a medium load with a .002 case space and .002 jump.
 
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