Chasing the lands is stupid... What do you think?

[Rset]

A lot of good information in the video, but, Does it really matter if you start from jam as described? I can get a reference measurement to the thousandth with a few repeated measurements. Does it matter what that measurement is as long as it is consistent? As long as I start from a know reference point, am I not getting the same results if I measure +/- from that point?

 

[eric32]

@Erik Cortina

You broke the internet with a knowledge bomb. Very good video, i always enjoy the info you put out. It validates what i have found out thru the years about tune windows and jump. Trying to measure alligator skin in a barrel is pretty hard.

I do it the other way around but arrive at the same point. I start where my bullet is barely above the donut/neck shoulder junction in my 6XC and same for my 308win and 260rem i just work out. These are for PRS and they shoot half moa or better. I keep it, i cant shooter better than that off a barricade so i am hapy with that level of accuracy

I never had repeatable results trying to measure the lands. So i just took that variable out.

KEEP UP THE KNOWLEDGE BOMBS!

 

[Shooter13]

I typically start at what I call full jam. That being, as far into the lands as my neck will allow. That leaves only one direction to work. That said, I can make small adjustments or, depending on application, I may just back it out enough to find the point where the bullet wont stick and dump powder, and work from there.

Unfortunately I think I've been jamming to hard and have started backing up, STILL working with the 30BR on it but think the 6PPC is pretty set!

 

[K22]

Perhaps "stupid" isn't the appropriate characterization in the title of this post - perhaps "necessary" is a more appropriate characterization. You asked for my thoughts so here it is.

Even though I'm not a competitive target shooter but a varmint and predator hunter, precision reloading is critically important to me. Also I'm not an expert in reloading but have been reloading for almost 50 years now which means nothing except I've done quite a bit of refinement in my reloading in an effort to find the optimum reloads for my purposes where functionality is also important for hunting purposes.

I've never found it necessary to jam bullets into the lands to achieve precise reloads for my purposes which is approximately 1/2 moa precision in my varmint rifles. I have a few (with custom Douglas match barrels) that will shoot consistently in the 1/4 moa range.

I measure the distance to the lands using a home made version of the Frankfort Arsenal tool which is fairly repeatable. The biggest variation being in the varying ogive of bullets, even high quality hunting bullets like the Nosler BT's and Sierra Game Kings.

I start load development at .020" off the lands assuming the loaded round will fit the magazine and enough bullet is seated in the neck to provide adequate bullet tension, typically I like one bullet diameter seating depth. This also tends to reduce run out.

If I vary seating depth going closer I never go closer than .010" to the lands to allow for variation in bullet ogives so I don't jam a bullet into the lands mainly because I don't want to have a bullet stick in the lands when I'm in the field. I'm also concerned about pressure surges that might occur by jamming bullets too far into the lands.

I've found that some rifles actually shoot better with a long jump. My Rem 700's have quite a bit of free bore as does my Browning X and A bolts. Yet these rifle shoot extremely well for a precision hunting rifle, in the 1/2 moa range with a large degree of jump to the lands.

I do realize that precision target shooting is a different game but for a lot of shooters like me the above procedure might work well for them - at least it has for me.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Not arguing..just a statement...I've never, ever, ever found any of my best loads jumping more than about .010" and 90+% of them were within a range between .010" in and .010 off of the lands. FWIW

Now...what is "touch"? I think I just made my own point. Who cares? 90+% of my best loads are within a .020 window with roughly half leaving a visible mark and the other half not.

See what I mean? This stuff is mostly about discussion forums, more than the actual "where they all shoot best."

 

[dmoran]

.... It's just a number until you shoot it. You then adjust it accordingly. Really, nothing more or less than that. The Wheeler method may work great at establishing a point of reference for discussion purposes, but that and 50 cents still won't get you a cup of coffee. It's just a point of reference for describing the length of your loaded round, in relation to your lands. Doesn't mean it'll shoot there and doesn't mean it won't..So what does it mean, of any value to me or the next guy? It's a way of conveying a good starting point for you and your load,bbl, etc. Nothing more and nothing less......

It tells you more then just that:
1... it also yields amounts of throat advancement
2... it also yields relevance indifference between bullets/ogives in relation to seating location of the lands
3... it can also tell you amounts of carbon fouling to the throat
A little more then just a reference point to enjoy over coffee !.!.!

 

[JEFFPPC]

Ok, watched the entire video now, twice. Eric and I do the same thing except he starts with "jamb", I start from a square mark from the rifling. I do find touch as a reference mark, not sure why, because I never reference it. I do not worry about a stuck bullet. My only fear of a pulled bullet is powder getting back into the trigger, so I don't let anyone touch the gun when it happens. I often shot hard into the lands. He is very correct in I also average 2000 plus rounds on a barrel without changing seating depth.I do at times adjust the tuner but not often. As an experiment 2 months ago after reading a PRS article (always looking for an edge)I advanced a 6brx load 3, 6, and .009., on an almost 1800 round barrel. .oo3 did not help, .006 helped, .009 it shot bad. This is inline with Eric's numbers.Good video.......still hate jamb. Love the shirt!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It tells you more then just that:
1... it also tells you the amount of throat advancement
2... it also tells you relevance indifference between bullets/ogives in relation to seating location of the lands
3... it can also tell you amounts of carbon fouling to the throat
A little more then just a reference point to enjoy over coffee !.!.!

Just tell me how it shoots, please. If it shoots dots, the rest doesn't matter.

 

[dmoran]

Just tell me how it shoots, please. If it shoots dots, the rest doesn't matter.

Why does anything matter or have meaning, if you want to be so hypocritical?

 

[Stan Taylor]

I deleted my quote to Donavan I will just observe I obviously have been doing my land chasing wrong all my shooting years have at it boy's I will just be an observation member here.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Why does anything matter or have meaning, if you want to be so hypocritical?

Explain that Donovan..how am I being a hypocrite? I'm at a loss here. Help me out.

 

[savageshooter86]

So I believe his method is to avoid a possible stuck case? Because essentially what most others do is establish “touch” and find the same seating window Erik mentions where it shoots well over a couple seating depths. And then verify and if it moves just tweak seating to next spot and you’re still in the window. Just measure touch and stay within that window. Has never failed me before

 

[Erik Cortina]

It’s obvious I need to do a part 2 since a lot of you still don’t understand what I’m saying.

 

[Scott Harris]

Hi Erik,

My initial setup is slightly different, but we do agree completely with your conclusions. We don't chase the lands. We are usually at .020" off the lands with a new barrel and never change the seating depth again. I'm a reloading cave man ... but I am trying to stay at the Holiday Inn Express more often.

 

[Stan Taylor]

It’s obvious I need to do a part 2 since a lot of you still don’t understand what I’m saying.

Here's the part your missing your video probably has a lot of merit F-Class I don't think it will have any value in shooting little small groups in long range benchrest.
Very entertaining an good luck on your educational videos.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Here's the part your missing your video probably has a lot of merit F-Class I don't think it will have any value in shooting little small groups in long range benchrest.
Very entertaining an good luck on your educational videos.

So maintaining maximum accuracy for life of the barrel how no value in BR? i guess I really don’t understand how that game is played than. Lol

 

[argh]

It’s obvious I need to do a part 2 since a lot of you still don’t understand what I’m saying.

Going through again what you put up on here and in your video, i might be as bold to make the following observations.
1. There are many ways to find a seating depth that works for your own particular case, barrel/chamber, style of shooting, and projectile choice. Some people find the distance to the lands (call it what you will jam, kiss, touch, etc) and go from there - in, or out, some start at mag length and work in. I think most experienced reloaders know how to do this.
2. As the barrel wears, we adjust our load. Be it charge, tuner, seating depth, or combinations of all. If we use a datum to check in on (distance from lands) thats just one way. If we gradually increase seating length and test, thats another way.

There is nothing inherently wrong with what you say or put forward. Its the WAY YOU DO IT.

When you believe what you say is the only way to do a particular task, and you say (or yell) that anyone that does it different is STUPID, then you have just lost that part of your audience.

Myself, i read what others do, i test things, i test again, i go against popular opinion to test alternates again, and i make my own educated decisions on what does and doesnt work for ME.. because what works for me and my rifle to get good scores is what matters. This is the engineer training in me i guess.

If your intended audience is the inexperienced reloader that just wants to be told how to reload without engaging their brain. I think you nailed it. Well done and you will get many thanks on your youtube vid. But on this forum and with experienced competitive shooters, you will get alot of people use different methods and will rightly take offence when you tell them they are STUPID, or their process which works for them is STUPID....

you have then doubled down with the above post patronising members of this forum because you think they dont understand your method. Which i think most people DO understand your method, they 1. Use a different method that works for them, and 2. Dont like someone YELLING patronising comments in videos, and they immediately switch off when you start ranting, yelling, and telling people thier methods are STUPID.

Good luck all in your shooting endeavours, wishinig you all tight groups with whatever load development method you choose

 

[Fast14riot]

My take away on all of this is to only use the measurements we can change: BTO/seating depth. We need to find out where the max allowable is to start, but then only worry about what we can change.

 

[jelenko]

My take away on all of this is to only use the measurements we can change: BTO/seating depth. We need to find out where the max allowable is to start, but then only worry about what we can change.

That was my take on the video also.\

I did find interesting the statement that seating depth windows are 3/1000's apart. Berger's article on seating depth seemed to say they are wider.

 

[Erik Cortina]

That was my take on the video also.\

I did find interesting the statement that seating depth windows are 3/1000's apart. Berger's article on seating depth seemed to say they are wider.

I did not say that seating depth nodes were 0.003” apart.