Cast Bullet Accuracy

[JGibson]

Hello Everyone:

I realize that this may be out of the forum's purview (raison de'tre, if you will). But, I am going to proffer the query. The whole idea is new to me. The financial requirements of building a proper rifle is well out of my ability. I am trying to simply use a Rem700 with some possible minor upgrades to shoot cast at real .30-06 velocities. I have been working at this for a short while and have had some success at reaching slightly better than 2600 fps, and getting 5 shot groups at 2 MOA. It is not yet consistent but seems to be MAYBE getting there. My range is in my backyard (or side yard, as it were) and is on the order of 200 yards. (I am taking it at 200 to get the 2 MOA)

I wonder if anyone has any suggestions taken from the jacketed world to improve accuracy. A VERY open ended and vague question, I know, but maybe someone could throw our some rudimentary suggestions.

I am using a very hard alloy and have settled on a bullet and powder for now. The bullet is a Lee, 160 grain .312" with a .276 BC. It actually weighs 161 grains and measures .3115". The powder is a SLOW IMR powder lit with a LRM primer. This is the best I have found so far.

I should have some L.E. Wilson dies, tomorrow and a .334" Redding TN bushing. I have been using Lee Collet Neck Sizing and Dead Length Seater dies.

I think the rifle, even at bone stock is capable of better than I can hold accuracy right now? Any suggestions on brass preparation? Whatever you guys might suggest I'm willing to listen. I do not entertain any BR shooting of jacketed for now, just want to see what can be accomplished within these parameters. If you have rifle tips, by all means fire away. I cannot ever afford outstanding optics or anything, even middle of the road will be a saving up venture.

Thanks in advance.

 

[stool]

check out 'castboolits" SUB FORUM..so do a search..it is not a dot com.

next would be CBA but they are set in their ways, not not very open minded...they do run cast benchrest.

my best with cast is right at 3/4" for 5 at 100..(308 win).I was beat by a friend shooting my rifle and my ammo....

 

[JGibson]

Yes sir. I am well aware of both places. Actually, I am banned at CB.

Odd, for me, when I get over 2600 fps, it is a very different ballgame regarding accuracy.

The alloy I am shooting has been arrived at after great experimentation but the forces are tough on a cast bullet.

 

[Jason Boersma]

cast bullets in a 30/06 should be going between 1500 and 1700fps for best accuracy, try AA5744, IMR4227 or Alliant 2400 for powders.

 

[JGibson]

I have shot a .59" group at 100 yards at 2300 fps. I just hoped to refine this just over 2600 to a consistent sub 4" group at 200 yards. I have shot 3.95", once.

 

[Jason Boersma]

you might also want to try a heavier bullet, I have started shooting military cast bullet matches and the guy's I shoot with, two of them hold national records, all shoot 180 to 210gr bullets. you might not want to shoot at those slower speeds but if you have time give it a try sometime.

 

[JGibson]

Thanks Jason

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have found with cast accuracy goes away very fast when you push them too fast. I think you are probably there. You can try to harden the alloy some more. What is the groove diameter of the barrel and sized bullet diameter? For me cast is about low recoil with softer alloy at slower speeds. So my experience is with wheel weights and 1500-1600 fps. I have a 2 groove 03a3 that I wish was scoped because i have shot so many groups under 1 moa at 100 with it I'd love see what it can really do.

 

[XTR]

CB is a great resource for this, too bad your banned. This place is not the best resource for information on cast bullets.

There are people who tell stories of highish velocity and accuracy from cast bullets, but the stories from the people who really get it done seem to be different. Getting a cast bullet up past about 2200 or so may be impossible, I seem to recall about 2200 being about the pla. Hard alloys and bullets that are .001 to .002 over groove size with gas checks if you want to try it.

w/o gas checks i think you will probably never get them over 1400 or so w/o issue. It has been a while since I looked into it and I was never looking for a 30 cal load.

Paper patching if you are a masochist (I've played with it with my 45-70s). I've browsed some topics about what people were doing with small bore stuff but my interest has been in loading for my 45-70s so my memories may be inaccurate, but the bottom line is that I don't think you can get much over 2000fps with consistent accuracy shooting cast

 

[bheadboy]

I have shot a lot of cast, use medium hard, Saeco 7-7.5 reading, with antimony and tin similar to linotype

the best higher speeds over 1400 have to have a GC, and the crimp on ones are better than the slip on ones.

I size .001 over bore and keep velocity under 2300- for best results.

bullet weigh minimum is in the 160s the heavier ones are better. I forgot to mention the lbt blue and other lubs are worth trying as Lyman and others may or may not get you where you want to be. Lub is very important and your bbl will tell you a lot, shoot the same load etc and try different lubs - they will preform differently and one will be your best.

Bob

 

[JGibson]

Thanks guys. You are a good bunch of folks.

I have shot cast for a long while and have shot excellent groups at way over the velocities referenced by Col. Harrison and others in the cast bullet world.

I understand it's not within the forum purview and you have my apologies. I expect that just watching what you guys do and picking and choosing in improvement areas that I think might be commensurate will be my best bet. But, I did get my feet wet here. Nice place.

 

[stool]

most current published works are out of date and based on "how its always been done" instead of trying something else or new.

most of cba is this way..i think the br guys might be more open mined.

the only place today that has people that do it different and try different things and report the results..good or bad is
"castboolits"..a sub forum which requires a search to find.

i have been part of them since almost day one..several forums ago.
they taught me to mix alloys, to make lube. to design molds.
to have a lot more fun that anyone thought was possible with wheel weights!
the bad news is i lost most of the tools in a fire and am rebuilding.
i shoot 9mak, 9mm, 38/357 40s&w,45acp, 44mag, 223rem, 308,30'06,8mm, 7.62x54r, 7.5x55swiss all with cast boolits.
sure i left something out..its a shame that under "enviroment" name lead wheel weights are going away.....they attack shooting sports any where and any way they can.

 

[JGibson]

Yes.

I have shot .300 WM, .458 LOTT, 7.5x55 SWISS, .303 Brit, .30-30 Win, .35 REM, '06, 500 S&W Mag (both handgun and rifle), .45-70. . . multiple BP firearms, and handguns from .38 splcl/.357, 9mm P, 10mm, 44 Rem Mag, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .475 L to the 500 Mag.

My alloy for HV rifle stuff is:

3 WQWW
1.5 Lino
1 mono
.5 Resin Core solder, 95 Sn/5 Pb

I do not heat treat.

I use a two step lube system.

I want to find a few tweaks for consistency, my friends, that's about it. I have defined my own parameters for accuracy with HV cast loads. Not up to you guys' standards for jacketed (or maybe even cast), for sure, but I am a big guy who lifted heavy weights for decades and my neuromuscular capabilities have some short circuits. So, it suits me.

 

[DOGCAPPER]

Check Single Shot Schutzen shooters.. All 200 yds 1.5" center bull scoreing rings 3/4 inch wide per point. Cast bullet no gas check. These guys shoot perfect scores at 200 benchrest. Scoreing is center of bullet from the bench and best edge offhand. Most do homemade lube. Falling block actions. LT

 

[JGibson]

Will do and thanks. I entertain no delusions about what is genetic and what is achievable. I fully realize I am a poor shot: both congenitally and damage I have done myself. I will never have an interest in shooting cast in contests. Certainly I can do better with LV cast rounds but that is not what interests me and still I could never come close to what some do.

For me, a 5 shot group that is >4" at 200 yards with a bullet zipping along at 2600 fps-2700 fps is good. I can do this about 90% or the time. Just wanted to see if you guys might have a trick or two from the jacketed world to get that to 100%.

 

[stool]

sort the cases,
trim to length,deburr in and out
anneal,
weigh your powder to less than 0.05
if the cases are not full of powder start a process to put the powder at the same spot when you pull the trigger...tilt the muzzle up then slowly lower.
weight sort the bullets to 0.1 or less.
use only enough lube to make to the end of the bbl.

 

[bheadboy]

I also found the use of a mild crimp (like a taper used on auto pistols) is helpful in getting good ignition with loads the powder does not fill the case. Stool is correct in making sure the powder is in the same position related to the primer by tilting the bbl up etc.



bob

 

[JGibson]

10-4.

 

[Ggmac]

Dear Mr .Gibson

I have been interested and invoved in precision shooting for over 30 years . I have been doing precision rifle fabrication for 28 of those years . Nothing was off limits , new ,old anything I could think of was tried .
My" Cast bullet adventures with the '06 " would be good reading , if only I could find the draft . It started with a win 70 , then with some help from some old timers ( probably younger than I am now ) suggested I try a springfield 2 groove barrel . That changed everything . My best win 70 groups were now easily beaten with the springfield 2 groove .
I found the 190 -210 gr gas checked bullet the most accurate and were at near jacketed velocities . We are talking heavy bullets , my SD 's were very low compared to the lighter bullets tried.
The 06 case is LARGE , so soon the 2 groove was cut an rechambered to 308 w. Not really the improvement I was hoping for . I did try multiple leade angles and neck diam. With both cases.
I can say , I found it more important to find a powder / bullet combo either cartridge / barrel liked ( along with as close to zero run out as possible ) than any chamber tweaking , ie , leade angles , neck diam . Etc.
Good luck ,and if you try a 2 groove barrel let me know.
Gary

 

[JGibson]

Thanks Gary and stool!

Courtesy and no condescension here, I LIKE THIS PLACE! Does the 2 groove have wide lands? I might just have to try your suggestions down the path a ways.

Just this afternoon (59 minutes ago), I got a 'new' batch of monotype; my L.E. Wilson Stainless Steel Bushing Neck Sizer Die, L.E. Wilson Chamber Type Seater Die, and Redding Neck Sizer Die Bushing 334 Diameter Titanium Nitride. I have an arbor press I bought for making GCs and it will be pressed into service with these.