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Case sizing???

Hey guys

Just want to hear if there is a difference on case life or accuracy between only neck sizing or full length sizing your cases?
Which way should you go on a 243 win hunting rifle?
 
Wilem-

Howdy !

For my target and varmint shooting, I have not had to FL size any rifle brass...for over 25yr.
Neck sizing has worked for me ( my loads, my guns ).

I can tell you when I gave it up. Back when I was shooting a large capacity .224" cal wildcat, I kept
doing only NS; only. After many reloadings of the brass, I wondered; shouldn't I FL size at some point ?
So, just becasue I could... I did.

That turned out to be a mistake, as I had multiple cases then go right on to case head seperation @ the next firing. Was the brass getting brittle ? Perhaps.... but you don't anneal down close the case head.
At that point it dawned on me... don't FL size unless you HAVE to. Adopting such a policy earlier,
probably would have prevented me from the premature destruction of those .224" wildcat brass'.

Thereafter I did $$$ for some good Wilson NS bushing dies, and more recently; for Hornady combo
" Shoulder bump / bushing NS dies ". I also went with a LEE " Collet NS " die for use w/ my Marlin
M-336 XLR .35 Rem. That rifle w/ a reduced load has put 5 shots into 5/8th inch @ 100 more than once.

I should mention that I don't shoot an auto-loader(s). And, I'm not standing in front of Grizzer bears.

My point:
( IMHO ) - Don't FL size, unless your brass will no longer fit your rifle's chamber ( unless you have some pressing auto loader need ).


With regards,
357Mag
 
In hunting rifles I fl size every time. Why take the chance when the buck of a lifetime is standing in front of you?
 
Thanks for all the info 357 mag I appreciate it very much.

I have got the lee collet NS dies as well as the full length sizing dies and have not seen a difference in accuracy whether I only NS or FL.

None of the cases that I NS has had any problems with chambering. The only problem I have come across with NS is that when you start too shoot hotter loads there forms a doughnut on the inside of the neck of the case right at the shoulder. When you only NS those cases some of the necks don't size correctly because the die just sizes the neck to the diameter of the doughnut and when you seat a bullet it sometimes sits loosely in the case. When you FL those cases the doughnut gets pushed to the outside and when you neck turn the cases you remove the doughnut.

But I think I'm going to stick with neck sizing the cases too, it's much less wear on your equipment and works just fine for me, i got a inside neck reamer to remove the doughnuts, now I just have to size a batch of brass twice with the NS die because I size the case then remove the doughnut with the reamer then size it again to ensure it gets sized to the correct diameter so that the bullets doesn't sit loosely in the neck.
 
If someone gets a head separation from full length sizing it is because he did not set the die properly...period, not because FL sizing caused it. I will admit that this can be trickier than sometimes meets the eye. Experience counts. Next: If you can get away with only neck sizing for 25 years, it is because you are loading to a level of pressure that is well below the potential of the cartridge. Of course you can choose to do that, but for hunting, I would think that performance would be a consideration, but that is just me.
 
+1 what Boyd said. The average reloader tends to load towards the "warm side" ( it's a guy thing).....NS in that case will give problems.
 
+2 Boyd

if the fl die is set to minimum shoulder setback .003 IMHO, the cases trimmed, hunting rounds of max or near max load will chamber ever time. when i plan a trip i will stepout side and run my hunting ammo through the mag into the chamber and our. i never go hunting with neck sized ammo.

Bob
 
While we are on the subject, I will relate a story about one of the tricky ones.

I had a Savage .220 Swift, and that caliber has a rather small shoulder angle. Cases of that design can be more easily driven forward by the combination of the striker fall and the primer detonation. I had gotten my Stoney Point Headspace gauge by then. Luckily, I was working on a small set of cases, that I FL sized with an RCBS FL die. I if I remember correctly, I only bumped the cases a thousandth or two, no more. I am sure of that. Anyway, after firing the FL sized cases, I noticed a bright line, and upon inspection with straightened paper clip, with a short bend at one end, felt a slight thinning on the inside of the case, where the bright line showed on the outside. Thinking about this a little, I decided that with the shallow shoulder angle, by bumping the shoulder, I had given the case just enough room to "take a run at" the chamber shoulder, so that it could be driven farther forward than it otherwise might have been, sort of like having some room to swing a hammer. In any case, for the next batch, I set the die so that the shoulder to head measurement was the same as they came out of the chamber, and the problem was solved...no more bright line. Thinking about it some more, I decided that cases with these sorts of shoulder angles are unlikely to be able to come up with much resistance to bolt closure at their shoulders, and that if there is any, a slight reduction of the body diameter, combined with keeping the shoulder as it came from the chamber will make the cases chamber easily.

Another thing that I learned, that relates to this came from fire forming and reloading 6PPC cases at the range, with a small set of cases. It takes several firings for a case to reach its maximum head to shoulder dimension, so I usually fire one case several times, in a particular barrel, to have an example of the maximum dimension, and it is in relation to that, that I bump. If I don't have such an example case, and need to FL size once fired cases, that are out of the rifle that I am loading for, I simply set the die so that the shoulder is the same as the fired case, and test it in the rifle, working with once fired, I have never had this result in a tight bolt.

Getting back to the Swift, back then, if you sent them the die and a fired case or two, RCBS would lap out the body of the die for minimum sizing. As the die came, it reduced the body diameters more than I liked, and because of that, I had to trim quite often, taking quite a bit off of the length of the case each time. After having the die lapped out, the amount that cases grew from FL sizing was cut in half. Taking this to an extreme, my custom 6PPC die does not change the shoulder diameter by a measurable amount, and it sizes the back of the case by half a thousandth. I usually set shoulder bump for a thousandth or less, and as a result my cases hardly grow at all, and I do not use light loads.

This has rambled a bit, but for the newer reloaders, I hope that there has been something useful.
 
The first thing for hunting ammo is cycle it through the rifle at home and make sure you don't have any chambering issues. Dies that do not over full lenth is the answer. The .002 shoulder bump is a good thing. Your ammo should just glide into the chamber. Your standard full length reloading dies over size the brass for a factory chamber.
 
FL size every case every time, hunting, target...everything. With that said, you have to have the die set up correctly for your chamber.
 
Boyd & Bhead -

For info:

.224" cal wildcat was based on .35 Rem parent brass.
When time came to order dies, .35Rem case specs varied widely; no matter where one looked.
SAAMI case specs were and I believe still are not-quite might; as regards some .35 Rem case specs.
The print I saw shows a .405" shoulder diam, for example.

This affected the base diam I specified to RCBS, for the custom case forming and reloading die sets;
as it affected the base diam specified for the re-size reamer ( and chamber reamer ).

The RCBS dies ( all ) for the wildcat, were set-up to be operated w/ the bottom of the dies in contact
w/ the shellholder. This is how I ran them.

For Neck sizing, I had a Wilson bushing-type NS die, that Fred Sinclair had cusotm-reamed for the wildcat.

At-length, formed and fired wildcat brass showed a slightly perceptible enlargement of the brass; just above the case head. The bulge was little more than cosmetics, until I performed FL sizing
( basically... when it wasn't required ).

I didn't operate the FL die adjusted improperly. What happened ran more to the challenges I faced trying to come-up w/ valid . 35 Rem case specs.

My second set of wildcat brass I never FL sized, and never lost a case to "case cracking" near the head; or to case head seperation. Those I only neck sized.


With regards,
357Mag
 
The instructions that RCBS gives out to lower the die till it touches the shell holder are for the once a year deer hunter. To properly set up a FL die one needs to take accurate case measurements, of fired and sized cases, from datum line to head. I am sorry that the die manufacturer led you astray. It sounds like you are a careful reloader.
 
Boyd -

I had William Keys on the phone at least once, during the project.
The .224"cal wildcat came after I had been CF reloading for a few years.

On my newer 6mm wildcat project, I faired MUCH better !

Thanx for your most gracious response.


With regards,
Kevin
 
Just for grins,what rifle are you shooting the .243 from? That may change things.
 
jonbearman said:
Just for grins,what rifle are you shooting the .243 from? That may change things.

It is a custom built .243.
It has a Mauser K98 action with a Musgrave barrel(24" with 1:10" twist rate). Was a blank barrel and the chamber was cut by Truvelo(Gun and armoury manufacturers) in South Africa.
 
Oh and thanks for all of the replies guys!!!!

I am somewhat still debating with myself over what I should do. It seems that most of the worries on the hunting rifle part is chambering the round. I shoot the Hornady 87gr V-max bullets at about 3350ft/s wich is a pretty hot load in my rifle and when i only neck size those cases I do not have any difficulty chambering the loaded rounds and they are 4-5 times fired cases.

Other than chambering the neck sized cases are there any other problems that can occur?
 
I have a Sako 6mm ppc that i galled the locking lugs on the bolt. The lugs had grease but as i only neck sized with heavy loads eventually the cartridges got "snug" on bolt closing with some cartidges, one of these cartidges upon firing left me with a bolt that i had to beat open with my fist and lug was galled.
Have used a shoulder bump die with this gun ever since. Go no go shows headspace still OK but makes me ill every time I look at that damaged bolt!!
I have wilson dies for my new to me 6mm ppc gun that came with it, have just started using it but now have the gauges to check that it is not over sizing the brass.


Rodney
 
Willem .243 musgrave said:
Oh and thanks for all of the replies guys!!!!

I am somewhat still debating with myself over what I should do. It seems that most of the worries on the hunting rifle part is chambering the round. I shoot the Hornady 87gr V-max bullets at about 3350ft/s wich is a pretty hot load in my rifle and when i only neck size those cases I do not have any difficulty chambering the loaded rounds and they are 4-5 times fired cases.

Other than chambering the neck sized cases are there any other problems that can occur?

Other than chambering? Well, if thst's not a good enough reason I guess I'll give you another.

Your brass grows every time you fire it. If you only neck size, the base of the brass will keep growing as well. At some point you will have to FL size, you can anneal the neck and shoulder but not the base. Depending on your chamber, the base will work harden and you will develop a bolt click when extracting brass, because base of brass is sticking to chamber (brass too big), and you will not be able to bring it back to it's original dimensions. So brass is ruined, but most importantly, you will have hard time extracting brass. Some people have broken their bolt knobs because of this.

Now, there have been about 10 of us that suggest FL sizing, and one that doesn't. And it appears that you are still thinking of neck sizing only. We understand it is your rifle and your decision, but it seems like you were not looking for an answer on the best method but more for people to agree with you.

Good luck.
 
Willem .243 musgrave said:
Hey guys

Just want to hear if there is a difference on case life or accuracy between only neck sizing or full length sizing your cases?
Which way should you go on a 243 win hunting rifle?

There might be a difference in accuracy, or not - if there is, it will be better from neck sizing.

As to case life, the main reason for cases failing is FL sizing.

I have read this thread, and the advice you have gotten about FL sizing does not relate to the average shooter. The FL die for a custom benchrest rifle has absolutly no relationship to the FL die that comes in your set of RCBS dies. By FL sizing, you can introduce upwards of 14 thou of head space, which will quickly lead to case head separations. To try to manage that headspace by turning back a standard FL die by 1/4 of a turn makes no sense, since a 1/4 of a turn equals 18 thousandths of an inch.

And to manage headspace as described here, you need a set of Hornady headspace gauges and a digital vernier (~$75-ish) and a set of comp shell holders (~$50)... without which, you can not keep headspace within 3 thou as was suggested.

Get a neck size die, and if your cases get hard to chamber, then run them through a FL die the least amount you need to, to get them to fit smoothly.
 
One thing worth noting is that die manufacturers do not all use the same standard for their FL dies. A long time ago, I think that it was Richard Lee (but don't hold me to that) told me that while RCBS FL dies are made to SAAMI ammo minimum, that Lee are made to SAAMI maximum. What this means is that for any given chamber, that the Lee dies will not reduce the various diameters as much as the RCBS. I have spent a lot of time loading with one piece dies, before I had anything but factory rifles, and I am well aware of the differences, but some things can be learned from the fancier stuff that is useful for the more pedestrian. The advice to get a way to accurately measure shoulder to head distance is a good example. For once fired cases, using factory dies, for factory chambers, in bolt actions, because they have not reached their largest shoulder to head dimension, I have had pretty good results simply adjusting a FL die so that it gives the same measurement as a fired case. Of course you should remember to either remove the primer from the fired case, or reseat it well below flush before measuring it. With some clearance left at the shoulder (after a single firing) and the reduction in body diameter, the bolt should close just fine.
 

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