Forming 6XC Brass - Picture

[Rtheurer]

Formed a couple pieces of Brass from Palma Small Primer 308 brass.... Nope nope nope not for me. What a pain in the ass.
The picture above is 22-250 brass being sized down, next to it is the fire formed version after that wrinkle blows out.
The next picture is a 6.5X47 lapua necked down with a single stroke of the Press handle in a Full Length die. and to the right is a 308 Palma Brass worked down to 47MM which was a big pain in the but and the necks are real thick as all the neck used to be Body and shoulder area of the 308 brass.

Just my thought on the way to go.

 

[spclark]

Formed a couple pieces of Brass from Palma Small Primer 308 brass.... Nope nope nope not for me. What a pain in the ass.

Yep, it certainly is that!

Why I was so hopeful when I got wind of Lapua's plans for small-primered 6.5 Creedmoor. Doesn't 6.5x47 end up a little shorter than spec though? I thought I tried some of it when it came out, before the Palma brass appeared on the scene....

 

[AckleymanII]

There is an accuracy node at 3200, Sierra 107, cci 450 with palma brass in a long barrel if you want to get there.

 

[Rtheurer]

Wow, Angry much?

From where did the 6XC come from? Was it a spin off of a European Case named the 6MM Swiss Match designed years ahead of the 6X?. Are the case dimensions the same? Hmmm? Lots of Questions..

I will continue to form brass from 6.5X47Lapua.

 

[AckleymanII]

I made brass for the 6 XC with 308 Chinese military brass, and it shot in the low 2's. Then PMC once fired, and it shot in the 2's. Next came Lapua 308 regular and Palma. I put 500 rounds on 15 of the Palma cases, they are still going strong.

My only regret was that I wish the case had a 40* shoulder instead of a 30*.

Lead, I appreciate you pointing out the trick on shortening the 7/08 die....dumb butt simple.

 

[Rtheurer]

I guess yours and mine ideas of what is "too much" and what is not are not the same. I like to wild cat, so there are cases that I do, which are not what anyone would form as it involves a ton of work just for one case if it even makes it through the forming in the first place.
I appreciate the dedication of what your doing. I really do, and I don't mean to disparage anyone from doing this at all, however I believe it would be appropriate to let folks know that that the neck needs to be turned, its a by product of shortening the longer 308 PALMA case, of what was body is now neck. If you check the thickness variation afterward you will see a pretty high variation in high and low spots from the process. Plus the added thickness as you point out may be to thick for most chambers if using the 308 Lapua Palma brass. After moving metal like that it is also wise to Anneal from the work hardening ( your good to go with one of Davids fine annealers in the back ground I see) . Are there better options? Yes. Will this work? Yes. I don't mean to put you down or your method so please don't take it that way.
I added the pictures so folks could see, three versions normally used to make 6XC brass. That is all. Some how I believe you didn't think it was applicable.? Guess I thought it was. Maybe I am wrong... that happens. If I had to make 300 or more pieces of Competition brass... this would a little bit of work.
Any way good luck to you.

 

[spclark]

Wildcatting will have its adherents so there's gonna be a bell curve of work depending on what any one of them is willing to attempt - or put up with - to travel that road.

My very first attempts at taking the Palma brass down to 6XC were disappointing:



- but I kept at it, finally working out what steps were necessary to cope with moving all that metal. Since then I've ruined a few more cases looking for ways to shorten the process as I fully expect to continue using this cartridge and do not wish to return to using large primers.

I for one appreciate the folks contributing their experiences here on this forum not only to take my thinking into areas I'd not considered but also to bring their tips & tricks forward, some of which have helped me work thru any rough parts with something I'm messing with.

One such here is that 6.5x47 brass option: I'd been thinking it's too short but a friend measured some & reported 1.842" +/- a couple thou. Compared to the 1.890" I trim to (both Henriksen's and Whitley's reamer specs have 1.911" for COL) it is too short yet if one sticks to one dimension in practice it ought to work just fine.

As for reading emotions into what gets posted here, I don't bother. That's something better done face-to-face as necessary, there's too much left out of the transaction when it's just text in a window, and as Ledd said my energies are better spent satisfying different goals.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Thanks Rtheurer. I wasnt aware of the 6mm Swiss Match case dimensions, but haven't heard of wrinkled shoulders on the 6XC when forming from 22-250 so I'm not sure why that is happening to you. I mostly thought that forming 6.5x47 from 308 was a bit of a stretch being that it is even smaller than the 6XC. Tho I've formed 20 VarTarg from 223 which is an even more radical transformation and I do feel that it is a PIA to take a case shoulder down that far.

The necks do end up quite thick on the 6XC from 308. My neck walls end up close to .016" thick, but the thickness is actually quite uniform with the Black Hills Match brass Im currently using. For my chamber, I turn them down to .013" for good clearance. But that is still less than many bench rest shooters turn off the neck with the 6PPC case using a .262" neck chamber in a barrel. I turn all of my case necks to create neck wall thickness uniformity whether or not the chamber requires it. Some less than others depending on chamber dimensions. Doesn't matter if I'm just turning off high spots with a touch up or turning down .003" off the necks, it all takes the same amount of time for each case so it makes no difference to me.

I still feel that this is a good alternative method for creating 6XC brass and posts like the one from 'Ackleyman II' prove that this method can produce very accurate ammo. I haven't fired my 6XC at 100 yards yet. Only 200 yards to 500 yards, but it will hold 2.5" groups at 500 yards which is pretty decent for a light contour barrel (#4 @ 22") hunting rifle.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Wildcatting will have its adherents so there's gonna be a bell curve of work depending on what any one of them is willing to attempt - or put up with - to travel that road.

My very first attempts at taking the Palma brass down to 6XC were disappointing:

View attachment 1003743

- but I kept at it, finally working out what steps were necessary to cope with moving all that metal. Since then I've ruined a few more cases looking for ways to shorten the process as I fully expect to continue using this cartridge and do not wish to return to using large primers.

I for one appreciate the folks contributing their experiences here on this forum not only to take my thinking into areas I'd not considered but also to bring their tips & tricks forward, some of which have helped me work thru any rough parts with something I'm messing with.

One such here is that 6.5x47 brass option: I'd been thinking it's too short but a friend measured some & reported 1.842" +/- a couple thou. Compared to the 1.890" I trim to (both Henriksen's and Whitley's reamer specs have 1.911" for COL) it is too short yet if one sticks to one dimension in practice it ought to work just fine.

As for reading emotions into what gets posted here, I don't bother. That's something better done face-to-face as necessary, there's too much left out of the transaction when it's just text in a window, and as Ledd said my energies are better spent satisfying different goals.

Are you using a shortened 7mm-08 body die as I suggested? It doesnt cost much and is a vital tool in the forming process to avoid ruining brass. Very hard not to crush a shoulder if trying to lower the shoulder on a 308 case using only the 6XC FL sizer or any other sizing die intended for a case with a 6mm neck. 6mm is just to small for the initial formation step of setting the shoulder.

 

[spclark]

6mm is just to small for the initial formation step of setting the shoulder.

No...at least not yet!

Those first attempts I used the Tubb die I bought. The 'gauge' bushing included - neck ID substantially larger than the others intended for sizing fired cartridges - worked well enough. After I'd sold that off I bought a 6.5x47 die for the initial shoulder push-back & neck resizing, which works nicely for that step.

I've converted 200 Palma cases now, in two batches. The first has lasted me years, the second was done just over a year ago, hasn't seen much use yet.

 

[spclark]

Thanks Rtheurer. I wasnt aware of the 6mm Swiss Match case dimensions, but haven't heard of wrinkled shoulders on the 6XC when forming from 22-250 so I'm not sure why that is happening to you.
The necks do end up quite thick on the 6XC from 308. I turn all of my case necks to create neck wall thickness uniformity whether or not the chamber requires it.

The wrinkled shoulders can happen forming from 308 brass too... I got over it when I had it happen once I found they 'ironed out' just fine after firing two or three times and didn't seem to affect accuracy out at 600 yards. Usually either too much lube or moving the brass too fast / too far at one time is what I put it up to.

As for turning - I do as you do, for much the same reasons. With the Palma brass I already had a .243 neck reamer on hand from something before. Once I understood how much brass was thickening I thought maybe taking some off each side would be better than all off the outside, despite my not seating 105's deep enough to encounter any donut from the thicker body brass at the shoulder/neck junction.

 

[Rtheurer]

Ledd and Steve

I believe that there is an Instant " I need to do this with Lapua Brass" as indicated right after your first post. We all know how much thinner the Winchester brass is so lets let everyone know they may encounter some issues with the thicker Lapua Brass. Looks Like Steve is on the lead on this.

Hope you two fellas are well. : )

Russel

 

[Rtheurer]

This reminds me of the first time I formed out of 22-250 brass. I never owned one and didn't realize how much case tapper that case actually has! Its a lot more than I thought, and that is what is the problem with pushing the shoulder back on the 250 as it does not make contact with the Die walls on the 6XC die ( Or others) and wants to collapse. This is why the 308 type cases that is wider at the shoulder and is supported while being formed makes it a little more viable.
Those that are seeking Small Primer pocket brass will be well served with the new Creedmore Lapua Brass I think. Thoughts?

Shoot well.

Russel

 

[spclark]

We all know how much thinner the Winchester brass is so lets let everyone know they may encounter some issues with the thicker Lapua Brass. Looks Like Steve is on the lead on this.

From data I collected years ago, 6XC cases derived from Winchester and Remington 22-250 weight in at 159.1 and 151.1 grains respectively. Norma’s 6XC comes in at 157.5, their 22-250 formed to 6XC is 160.4.

PALMA formed to 6XC is 165.9 so that’s true enough but not where we should leave off with the discussion.

There’s also an issue RCW III targeted when he came up with his 6XC II chamber designs: how case body diameter near the extractor groove affects whether formed-up & fired brass extracts easily. Case body taper is important too!

As I mentioned earlier I’ve encountered this recently upon firing some 6.5 Creedmoor formed to 6XC (very stiff primary extraction) while prior experience with the PALMA brass wasn’t similarly affected.

I’m trying to gain an understanding of what I can do to remediate this short of going with RCW II’s reamer for a new barrel….

...308 type cases that is wider at the shoulder and is supported while being formed makes it a little more viable.

Those that are seeking Small Primer pocket brass will be well served with the new Creedmore Lapua Brass I think. Thoughts?

6.5 Creedmoor has less body taper than 6XC, may be why I’m seeing stiff extraction. Formed using 6XC die for the final step, the resulting body clearance may not be enough to allow a fired case to spring back enough. 6XC from PALMA might be better owing to the thicker case wall holding the new taper better? I dunno….

What I DO know is both 6.5x47 and 6.5 Creedmoor brass from Lapua is retailing ~ $25 more / 100 than the PALMA brass.

So even if the Creedmoor can be made into 6XC that works, whether it’s worth the extra price becomes an issue.

(Likely be the same were Lapua to decide to make small-primered 22-250, putting us back to near the beginning… hey, that gives me an idea....)

 

[AckleymanII]

I use Paul Bikes form die and bushings, never lost a case. Shortened 7/08 is on the fast track now For forming.

 

[spclark]

I use Paul Bikes form die and bushings, never lost a case.

That the <pbike> that used to post here? Latest I found was back in '08... you have contact info for your's?

 

[ptf18]

Fellows: I've got a 6mm250. Any thoughts about using some other case to form brass for this cartridge. Currently Im using 22-250 cases and "upsize them to 6mm.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Fellows: I've got a 6mm250. Any thoughts about using some other case to form brass for this cartridge. Currently Im using 22-250 cases and "upsize them to 6mm.

The 22-250 base diameter is listed at .469". Check the base body diameter on your fired cases. If they are around .468" +/- .001", you should be able to use 308 family cases which are listed at .470" base diameter .. I would still recommend getting the shoulder set with a shortened 7mm-08 body die before final sizing with the 6mm-250 die.

6.5x47 Lapua would almost be an exact match save for the smaller shoulder diameter on the 22-250 case (the 6.5x47 has a much straighter body taper design seen in most of today's more modern cartridges). Could probably just run 6.5x47 Lapua in your 6mm-250 sizer and be formed up in one step. Any shoulder irregularities will sort themselves out after firing. Of course if you are looking to save money, the 6.5x47 brass won't do that for you. The advantages of using 6.5x47 brass would be getting the small primer pocket, PPC diameter flash hole, and necks wouldnt end up as thick as when forming from 308 family cases.

 

[AckleymanII]

View attachment 1003545 View attachment 1003546

As you can see, the case on the right is formed from Palma brass, and you end up with a neck that is ~.430 long. I used a neck reamer to extend the neck in the chamber.

At that point, you can use that extra .100 longer neck to only cut a .005-.030 freebore that would be normal for a std 6 XC length neck with .105-.130 free bore, or start the .105-.130 freebore from the end of this new case neck length.

There are three positives on cutting the longer neck. First, if you keep the original length freebore based on the short neck, you can chase the lands for a very long time giving you perhaps longer barrel life. Second, if you start the freebore from the end of the new case length, then you have increased the size of your combustion chamber, possibly lowering pressure on top end loads. There is a possible third positive that maybe the "turbulence point" has been moved way back in the case vs out in the throat saving throat wear.

I have elected starting the throat at the end of the new longer neck, I throated .130, and found an accuracy node at 3150 with a 31" 8T barrel with 39g of H4350 and 7 1/2 pirmer, and at 3200 with 40g of R#17. I shot 600 rounds on 15 palma cases, have not lost a primer pocket yet.

I am not sure that the longer necks get me anything in as far as controlling the leade wear from moving the "turbulence point" back, but will do some calculations soon on how much the leade growth has been in nearly 800 rounds down the barrel. The barrel does look fantastic at this point with bore scope with just a tiny bit of fire cracking...tiny bit. X caliber barrel, and I do not see any copper fouling until I get to 3270 fps with the 107g sierra.

 

[TAJ45]

As you can see, the case on the right is formed from Palma brass, and you end up with a neck that is ~.430 long. I used a neck reamer to extend the neck in the chamber.

At that point, you can use that extra .100 longer neck to only cut a .005-.030 freebore that would be normal for a std 6 XC length neck with .105-.130 free bore, or start the .105-.130 freebore from the end of this new case neck length.

There are three positives on cutting the longer neck. First, if you keep the original length freebore based on the short neck, you can chase the lands for a very long time giving you perhaps longer barrel life. Second, if you start the freebore from the end of the new case length, then you have increased the size of your combustion chamber, possibly lowering pressure on top end loads. There is a possible third positive that maybe the "turbulence point" has been moved way back in the case vs out in the throat saving throat wear.

I have elected starting the throat at the end of the new longer neck, I throated .130, and found an accuracy node at 3150 with a 31" 8T barrel with 39g of H4350 and 7 1/2 pirmer, and at 3200 with 40g of R#17. I shot 600 rounds on 15 palma cases, have not lost a primer pocket yet.

I am not sure that the longer necks get me anything in as far as controlling the leade wear from moving the "turbulence point" back, but will do some calculations soon on how much the leade growth has been in nearly 800 rounds down the barrel. The barrel does look fantastic at this point with bore scope with just a tiny bit of fire cracking...tiny bit. X caliber barrel, and I do not see any copper fouling until I get to 3270 fps with the 107g sierra.

Awwriiight. Getting to burn some powder and test. How are the groups now? Back to where you left off I hope.
Just curious as to OAL of case @ .430~ nk. Didja have fun with this last session? I'm heading to the shop to move a bunch of my stuff to get the deadbeat daughter's unused carpet unearthed and out for the buyer to pick up. I ain't loading that 15' roll into the p/u. My back is worth a lot more to me. I ain't in the best mood and Dinah is a bit bummed as today is daughter's BD. We will soldier through.