Understood, thank you.....
Case color change - metallurgy question
- Thread starter highplainsdrifter
- Start date
I tumbled about 200 of them last night (!).... they are drying now. I will put 50 or so in the vibrator tumbler with some fresh walnut shell this afternoon just to see what happens. I will update tonight. Thank you for the info....
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Since your just starting the neck turn game here is a tip after doing it for quite a few years. A ball Mic, A note pad , a pencil, and math is good. But much better is an empty turned case loaded with the bullet you intend on using, a regular Mic, and the diameter of your chambers neck. Works best for me, hope it helps.I will run that test, 243, thank you. I have to run up to my Ace Hardware store or Harbor Freight (gulp!) to pick up a ball mic. Been needing one anyway! Gotta find my mask and gloves!I have just awakened to the adventures of playing with neck thicknesses and do need more tools to fully appreciate the differences in neck pressures. Thank you....
rwj
Gold $$ Contributor
I did the same as the OP to some Lapua 6BR cases several years ago, a quick immersion in a mild vinegar solution removed the oxide layer. The cases have been fired at least 15 times since then without issue. Just sharing my experience as I believe is one intent of this forum... each can decide their own course of action.
I got me an appliance timer so my tumble doesn't run all night when I forget. Won't help the soak all night problem but then again I got rid of my steel pin set up and kept my walnut/corncob media set up so all my problems are solved, at least those related to case cleaning.
I are a engineer too just not the kind that knows about what we are talking about in this thread.
I are a engineer too just not the kind that knows about what we are talking about in this thread.
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Lemi Shine is a neutralized salt of citric acid, not the acid itself. It acts as a chelating agent, which benefits the detergent in dishwashing solution, especially in regions with hard water. It is not a strong enough chelating agent to suck all the copper out of your brass if left sitting overnight, nor will it dissolve the metal during that time. What you are seeing is likely a very minor surface redox reaction.
Thank you all for your replies. I think I will do some experimenting with them. So far, it looks like the color change is only about as thick as a normal coat of tarnish would be after leaving them exposed to air for a year or so in my reloading room, but as pointed out, it is also on the inside. I am going to zip one in half with the Dremel and see what it looks like inside, tumble a few for a day in walnut shell and then, maybe, if I'm really feeling like a risk taker sometime this Summer, I may load some light loads to see what happens. I have one or two 308s that I don't have a lot of money wrapped up in. Or maybe, if good sense prevails, I may just chuck them! I have about 10,000 once-fired 308s and these are some old Federal Palma Match from the 1997 games. It won't be a huge loss. Again, thank you all for your input.
Getting here late to the party but . I’ve had cases that came out yhat color and they did not tumble for that long , only 2 hours max . After asking around I conclude I used to much lemishine , like 2 45acp cases full .
I deprime then wet tumble . After that I resize , trim then dry tumble which changed the case color back to super shiny brass color . FWIW I’ve been using that brass with out noticing a difference.
I deprime then wet tumble . After that I resize , trim then dry tumble which changed the case color back to super shiny brass color . FWIW I’ve been using that brass with out noticing a difference.
DirtySteve
Gold $$ Contributor
Dusty, Stop staying at a Holiday Inn Express you're giving folk information over loads.. lol
I will run that test, 243, thank you. I have to run up to my Ace Hardware store or Harbor Freight (gulp!) to pick up a ball mic. Been needing one anyway! Gotta find my mask and gloves!
Even if there is damage it's well below 0.0001" you won't measure a loss of metal with a micrometer. I tumble my brass about 5 times a year in dawn and lemishine. Maybe 30 hours in 5 years. No sign of damage. I know the difference between someone having technical experience and giving their personal opinion. In 2009 I bought a 6BR barrel and 200 Lapua cases. Been shooting the same cases for 11 years.
IDK about a risk . I mean people have been wet tumbling with lemishine for many years . I’d think there would be hundreds of threads by now talking about ruined brass do to lemishine . The OP can’t be the first one to have left there brass in the liquid over night or had this color change .
I’ve seen maybe hundreds of threads talking about wet tumbling over the years . This is the first time the brass being ruined because of the color has ever come up .
It’s interesting for sure but until now I would have never given it a second thought . Not sure I’ll think about it in the future. YMMV
I’ve seen maybe hundreds of threads talking about wet tumbling over the years . This is the first time the brass being ruined because of the color has ever come up .
It’s interesting for sure but until now I would have never given it a second thought . Not sure I’ll think about it in the future. YMMV
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Neutralized? With a ph of 3 per SDS?
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https://lemishine.com/products/detergent_booster/
A salt would be a citrate, right? Sodium Citrate, Calcium Citrate? That screengrab from their ‘ingredients’ description suggests it’s Citric Acid.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Neutralization is the process that occurs when you mix together a weak acid solution, such as citric acid, and a weak base solution, to form a dissolved salt and water. It does not necessarily indicate a final pH of exactly 7.0. Lemi Shine has been suggested to include a mixture of sodium citrate and potassium citrate salts. It is also possible there could some amount of the acid form in it, which would drop the pH a bit. More likely, the pH information given in an MSDS represents that of pure citric acid simply because the manufacturer has claimed the ingredients are proprietary and has therefore not provided the exact constituents or amounts. The lowest pKa for citric acid is 3.1. Citric acid is therefore a relatively weak acid, and a pH of 3 is really not that low. The pH of vinegar, which is ~5% acetic acid, would be around around 2.5. A dilute solution of a strong acid such as 0.1 M HCl would have a pH of ~1.0, and would be approximately 100 times more acidic.
If you really want to argue about whether a pH of 3 is low, have at it. Citrate is used in detergent additives to chelate metal ions such as Ca2+ and Mg2+ because they form insoluble salts when complexed with detergents, thereby impairing their ability to actually function as detergents. Anyone that has fairly hard tap water knows what that means. Citrate ion will be generated upon dissolution in water, regardless of whether its parental form was a soluble sodium/potassium salt or the acid, and can effectively function to chelate metal ions over a wide pH range from around 3 and above. Maybe Lemi Shine uses mostly the citric acid form, maybe they don't, I don't particularly care. It really doesn't matter and this is all just splitting hairs. The citrate in Lemi Shine is not likely to "dissolve" or "corrode" brass, or to chelate out all the zinc from brass at the relatively low concentrations we use in the space of a few hours.
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Chemical Case Cleaning Solutions
https://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm#Solutions
While tumbling cases in an abrasive media provides the best finish, extremely dirty cases can be decapped first (using a non-sizing die) and then washed in one of the following solutions. The final rinse in soapy water helps prevent tarnishing. All of these methods were approved by Frankford Arsenal and will not weaken your brass.
https://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm#Solutions
While tumbling cases in an abrasive media provides the best finish, extremely dirty cases can be decapped first (using a non-sizing die) and then washed in one of the following solutions. The final rinse in soapy water helps prevent tarnishing. All of these methods were approved by Frankford Arsenal and will not weaken your brass.
- A 5 percent solution of citric acid (available from your drugstore) and warm water for about 10 minutes. If your water is very hard increase the amount of citric acid. You can add some Dawn™ or Cascade™ dishwasher liquid soap (which does not contain ammonia--be careful some do), 409, or Awsome to the solution for extra grease cutting ability. Follow with a rinse in hot soapy water (Ivory™ works well) and allow to dry. Don't overuse the citric acid or the brass may discolor.
- A solution of 1 quart of white vinegar and 2 tablespoons of salt. Soak with some agitation for 15 to 20 minutes and follow with a rinse of soapy hot water and allow to dry.
- A solution of 1 quart of water, 1 cup white vinegar, 1/2 cup lemon juice, 1/4 cup laundry or dishwashing detergent, 1/8 cup salt. Soak with some agitation for 15 to 20 minutes and follow with a rinse of soapy hot water and allow to dry. This may leave brass with a slight pinkish cast which will disappear with a short tumble in media.
- Military arsenals use a heated 4 percent sulfuric acid dip with a little potassium dichromate added. The solution is heated until bubbles rise slowly without it boiling and the cases are dipped into it for 4 -5 minutes using a basket of copper screening or plastic. A final rinse using plain hot water is followed by hot water with Ivory™ soap in it and the cases are left to drain and dry. Because of the use of heated sulfuric acid this method is probably impractical for home use but is given here to show what can be safely used.
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm not savvy enough with chemistry to offer an opinion, but this is apparently not the first time the "What exactly is Lemi-Shine" question has come up:
http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2012/05/18/whats-in-lemi-shine/
Lemon-Lime Kool-Aid is 97% citric acid, but if you use it the brass and your fingers will turn green.
"BUT" the green brass will be safe to reload and shoot.
The above is meant as humor and the OP brass is safe to shoot. And if he wet tumbles the cases again they will come out bright and shiny.
https://lemishine.com/product_sds/
What Lemishine product is being used to clean brass? Seems there are many.
I have 1 of these. https://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=citric&affiliate_pro_tracking_id=17:36:
If using vinegar, it has to be deactivated.
What Lemishine product is being used to clean brass? Seems there are many.
I have 1 of these. https://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=citric&affiliate_pro_tracking_id=17:36:
If using vinegar, it has to be deactivated.
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