Cant seem to get the copper out of new Krieger barrel

[TOPOsniper]

I have a new 308 precision rifle with a Krieger barrel built at GAP. Last weekend I went to follow the Krieger/GAP break-in procedures and only got to the fourth round.

Using Shooters Choice Copper remover I followed the directions exactly but after the fourth round cleaning, I checked the bore using the q-tip method JeffVN showed me recently and I was shocked at how much copper there still was in the barrel.

Since then I have stepped through another 8 cycles of multiple wet, brush, wet, dry patches, check. Still has copper.

I went and bought a bottle of Butch's Bore Shine and did 2 cleaning cycles today and although cleaner, there is still copper in the bore I can see at the muzzle.

Should I expect to see a completely copper free bore on a new barrel? I do not know how many rounds GAP put through it, but I am a bit puzzled.

KG12 inbound to try next.

 

[people]

What I do for a tube I can not seem to get the copper out is I wet patch then run it almost to the muzzle and then fill it the rest of the way with sweets 7.62. So there is about 1/2 inch of 7.62 then pull the rod back until you feel it open in to the chamber then stop.

 

[Quick_Karl]

Well...

Some folks might argue about this one but, on really hard to clean barrels I usually get the JB Bore Cleaner out -- thoroughly work a fingertip of JB into a patch, wrap that patch tight around a brush, a try about 10 or 15 passes through the bore, then discard the patch and clean the brush with brake-cleaner.

Run some drippin wet patches through that bore till they start coming out clean and follow-with dry patches and do the q-tip trick again.

Worse case do the JB clean again. I've gotten very difficult barrels spotlessly clean with JB -- I know some benchresters that curse JB claiming it will remove metal from your barrel, but copper IS metal and as long as you don’t run that stuff up there a few hundred times I think you'll be OK, and others that swear by it, so investigate for yourself and decide. Lots of moly-coated bullet shooters use it to get the moly out of the barrel.

Then you need to start your break-in procedure again - shoot one shot and clean for 10-rounds, then 2-shots and clean for 10-rounds, and you should be darn near broke in. Once it's broke in proper it should clean very easily... unless you go shooting a hundred rounds without cleaning it.

I’m sure those Krieger’s are cut-rifled but not sure if they are hand-lapped? If they are hand-lapped I’d be wondering why it fouled so bad?

Best of luck and let us know how you get her straightened out.

 

[deadeyedick]

TOPOsniper

I just read where you mentioned something about a q-tip cleaning method. I have searched and can't find anything about it in the forum. do you mind telling this procedure?

 

[Forum Boss]

I'm not saying JB is not helpful but be judicious in its use.

I was just discussing this situation with Casey of PacNor barrels. He said: "JB contains pumice. Applied long enough, and hard enough, JB will polish the bore out to almost a mirror finish. That kind of finish will actually grab copper like a mutha'. You don't want a mirror finish.

For copper, we use Holland's witches brew. It contains small amounts of aluminum oxide, which is what we use to lap barrels."

There is a product called Warthog. The makers claim is works better than Sweets on copper. I haven't tried it, but others have, with success.

 

[CatShooter]

"... For copper, we use Holland's witches brew. It contains aluminum oxide, which is much gentler, and what we use to lap barrels."

Aluminum Oxide is right up there with Silicon carbide and just under diamond in hardness. It's Moh's hardness rating is 9 on a scale of 1 to 10,diamond being 10).

Not a good thing for shooters to be running down the barrel.

I am constantly amazed that shooters worry about bronze brushes wearing out their barrels, and yet think nothing of shoving abrasives that are 100,000 times as hard... bronze hardness is 4 and Aluminum Oxide is 4 times 10 to the fifth power.


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[Forum Boss]

The witches brew contains very, very small amounts of the abrasive, in a liquid. Not designed to be used like a scrubbing paste.

The issue here is the fineness of the compound and the resultant bore surface finish. Here's what Tubb says:

There is no question that JB compound will remove fouling from a barrel, but at what expense? Following feedback from
literally hundreds of Final Finish results, it has been ascertained that you can get a barrel interior too smooth. This results in increased bullet jacket fouling in the barrel. The polishing compound in JB is significantly finer than 1000 grit,more like 1200-1400).

Most handlapped barrel makers lap in their barrels with a #150 grit non-embedding aluminum oxide compound which breaks down into a finer grit with use, ultimately resulting in a grit of approximately #300 to #400 when the barrel lapping
process is finished."

Catshooter is right--aluminum oxide will lap steel. But the important thing is HOW it's applied, in what quantity, and the surface finish it leaves. Bottom line--you don't want to be too smooth, even if that looks pretty.

- - -

Personally, I don't use abrasives, but I understand they can be a "last resort" in some circumstances. I haven't had to put a brush,or JB) in my PacNor in 700 rounds, so Chris and the folks at PacNor seem to have a pretty good handle on how to finish the interior of a barrel to minimize fouling.

And just so it is clear--Chris is not advocating Aluminum Oxide to dissolve copper. Rather he's saying that, if you decide your barrel copper fouls too much, he recommends treating with the Witch's brew rather than aggressive use of JB. The reason being that he's seen many customers "go overboard" with JB and ending up polishing their bores too much, actually increasing the barrels propensity to foul.

So, the aluminum oxide in WB isn't used to dissolve copper but rather to help "condition" the bore surface to foul less, used as an alternative to abrasive paste.

 

[CatShooter]

The witches brew contains very, very small amounts of the abrasive, in solution. It's a liquid. Not designed to be used like a scrubbing paste.

Since Aluminum Oxide is not soluble, it can not be in a solution - it is suspension, and it will deposit itself on anything it comes in contact with.

Removing copper is not difficult and does not need abrasives to get out, as there are many harmless chemicals that will dissolve it.

It is the residue ash,commonly called "carbon") that can be a challenge.


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[AckleymanII]

it sounds like your barrel was never lapped. I would call Kreiger to see what they have to say about one of their fine barrels that are way below their standards.

 

[Jeffvn]

The q-tip method is a way of looking into the bore so that you can see any copper that is present.

It is a simple process of placing the butt on the ground, and then tilting the muzzle so that some light,artificial or from the sun) shines into the muzzle. While you have the light shinning into the muzzle, place a q-tip with a white shaft,the yellow shafted q-tips give a false color indication) down into the muzzle past the crown about 1/2 to 1" down into teh muzzle past the crown. The shaft on the q-tip will reflect the light onto the lands and groves amazingly well. Any copper in the tube immediately shows up a bright gold/copper coloring in the bore - you will not be able to mistake it for anything except copper fouling.

The presumption is that the fouling is along the entire bore and what you see at teh muzzle is also present thoughout the rest of the bore.

JeffVN

 

[flatlander]

I bought a Hawkeye borescope a little over five years ago, and continue to learn things about fouling,carbon & copper) with it to this day. Most of my barrels are Kriegers, along with a couple of Bartleins; three are 28" AR spacegun barrels, while the rest are 30" Palmas. Even with moly'd bullets, I routinely see copper in the last 4"-5" of the bore. My cleaning routine consists of a couple of patches wet with SC/GM TEC, followed by 10 back-and-forth passes with a saturated bronze brush. I nearly always leave the bore soaking at least overnight, often for a couple of days, depending on how busy I am with other things. A fresh saturated patch every 8hrs. will give some indication of how much copper is present, as well as give me some idea of whether it'd pay to let the bore soak longer.

When I'm satisfied that the SC has done all it's going to do,or when I get tired of having dirty rifles taking up bench space), I'll dry patch and check with the borescope. If there's much carbon in the throat, I'll apply IOSSO borepaste to a patch wrapped around a nylon bore brush and work the throat area over with at least 10 back-and-forth passes, then, based on how much copper was out at the muzzle, work sparingly on it with the IOSSO. I believe IOSSO is more effective on carbon than anything else I've used, including J-B, RemClean, or KG2. I'd much rather leave a little copper on the lands at the muzzle than overpolish the bore. Observations with the Hawkeye in several barrels over the past 5 years tend to make me agree with the above statement that polishing causes more copper to accumulate. And besides, a little copper at the muzzle seems to have very little to no effect on 600-1000yd. accuracy.

Kriegers, Bartleins, and PacNors are all lapped, so all you really need to accomplish with a break-in process is to smooth out the reamer-produced marks on the lands in the leade. The edges of the lands in the leade are sharp due to the concave surface the chambering reamer leaves when it cuts the leade. These thinned edges, along with the cuts across the lands, will erode fairly quickly, especially in barrels chambered for cases with large capacity for the bore dia. Bullet jackets will get cut & scuffed by any roughness or sharpness in the leade, which will cause more jacket fouling until the leade/throat area wears smooth from erosion. The purpose of a break-in is mainly to prevent this excess copper fouling from building up in the bore, not to improve the bore finish.

 

[Forum Boss]

Dennis, I read with interest your comments on bore cleaning and what you've seen with the Borescope. I recently bore-scoped my 6BR PacNor barrel. I typically clean after 45-50 rounds. The regimen is 3-5 soaking wet patches, followed by dry patches, then a 4-hour WipeOut soak.

As kind of a long-term experiment, I have never put a brush in this barrel, and never used Iosso or JB. The round count is 700. Here's what the bore-scope revealed.

1. Almost no copper in the bore except a few tiny trace lines, maybe 1/4" long, in spots where there were some thin longitudinal lines in the grooves. These were maybe the width of a razor blade edge, and the copper has "filled in".

2. Throat area looked like a new barrel. Pristine. No copper. No carbon. Honest, I was expecting to see hard carbon residues. There was nothing.

3. starting about 3" ahead of the chamber there was carbon along the edge of the lands where the lands meet the groove. The carbon was filling up this 90-degree transition, maybe 3-4 thousandths wide. Carbon was there, but it hasn't affected accuracy or velocity,yet).

I'm really quite amazed at the amount of cleaning your barrel requires. I guess I should count myself lucky.

I would be interested to see what the borescope reveals if you did a soak with Wipe-Out after one of your typical matches. I apply Wipe-Out once, then apply again in 40 minutes or so after the bubbles have settled. Then I let it soak for 3-4 hours. I do use Shooters Choice on wet patches BEFORE applying foam to get as much "black stuff" or what I call "soot" out of the barrel before the WipeOut goes in.

You might also consider the Carb-out product. Boyd Allen has used it with a wet brush and found that it knocked out the most stubborn carbon deposits as well or better than JB or Iosso.

To OTHERS: All barrels are different. Jason tried a Wipe-Out only routine for a while and his gun shot great. But after 450 rounds or so he started to get a Carbon problem that was affecting his velocity and his tune. Now he brushes, and uses an abrasive now and then. I've had factory barrels that needed to be scrubbed HARD with bronze brushes after just 25 rounds.

But there has been mounting anecdotal evidence that some of the problems we've been seeing may be caused by the burn-off of the chemicals we put in the barrels. When I bore-scoped my barrel I fully expected to see the dreaded carbon build-up in the throat area. To my total surprise the first few inches ahead of the chamber was clean as a whistle. I mean it looked like a new barrel. Maybe that is due, in part, to the fact that I don't apply petroleum based solvents or oils AFTER the WipeOut.

 

[jo191145]

I agree with Keithcandler. Either it was not lapped or lapped incorrectly.
I have a Kreiger 308 tightbore palma tube.
The first twenty rds,no break in) showed just a hint of green after cleaning with Sweets. No visible copper near the muzzle.
It might have been the bronze brush I used prior to the sweets.

Since then I've seen no copper unless I push the cheap lightweight bullets at 3000+. These leave little streaks of copper.
When using 155's at 2900+ I do not bother using copper removers on it unless I feel guilty.

Patch out with accelerator and a nylon brush is the fastest copper remover I've yet tried. You can let it sit or just keep brushing for faster results.
Never tried KG-12 but I've heard good things.

I just purchased a McGowen hand lapped tube in 243.
Coppers like a pig. I like to shoot my barrels not ship them so I'll deal with it on my own.

 

[flatlander]

E-I-C:
I don't want to come across sounding like a doubting Thomas, or to dispute your experiences, but over the past several years, I've read several comments on shooting forums from shooters who've got custom barrels that clean-up easily with nothing more than wet patches. Usually, the first thing that comes to mind after reading one of these posts is the cleaning advice for use with moly'd bullets given in an article in PS back in the mid-90s - the author strongly advised against using bronze bore brushes, claiming that Kroil & an occasional application of J-B was all that was needed. I also remember spending three days one winter working on stubborn carbon in the first 8"-10" of an AR15 service rifle barrel that had built up over the course of the previous season while using this recommended cleaning method. I was using a borrowed Hawkeye to monitor the results of my efforts - if I'd had my own borescope that summer, I'd have seen the problem much earlier, and would've taken appropriate steps before the carbon became such a problem.

We didn't have Wipe-Out back then, but I did buy four cans of the stuff a few years ago, just to see if the claims for it,read in another PS article) could possibly be true. I wasn't impressed with it at the time, and was very concerned that it was damaging the aluminum Riles front sight bases on my LR prone rifles. Perhaps it's time to give it another try, using it after a few patches of SC/GM TEC?

While I have custom LR barrels in 6.5x55, 308W, and a couple chambered for the straight 284W,and will soon be chambering a Bartlein hvy. Palma 6.5mm 8.5-tw. in 6.5x55 AI), I shoot more 6mm bbls. than anything else,4 Dashers, two 6x47Ls, & two 6 HAGAR uppers). One thing I've noticed that's pretty consistent - the 6x47s both build up carbon considerably faster than any of the Dashers or HAGARs, or for that matter, any of the other barrels mentioned. Logic dictates that expansion ratio plays a larger roll in this than anything else, since all are shot with moly'd bullets, and the powders used in the 6x47s are the same or very similar to those used in the other cartridges. Round count between cleanings varies somewhat - as low as 22rds. when a single any/any match is shot, to as many as 108 when a Regional HP match is fired. I see very little carbon in the Dashers after an 88rd. 4x600, and almost none in the 284 after a 3x1000, with a minimum of 70rds. fired, but it's always there, even after a single 22rd. any/any with one of the 6x47s. The HAGARs aren't bad where carbon is concerned, even after an 88rd. XC match. The LR rifles are shot exclusively with heavy bullets & slow powders, while the HAGARs see more 70-90gr. bullets than 105s, and are currently shot with N140 or RL15. Based on these experiences, I would imagine that a std. 6BR would be pretty inoffensive in this area also. I expect carbon may be more of a problem in the 6.5x55 AI than in the std. 6.5x55 or 284, so will be watching for that when I get that barrel finished.

Reading other shooters' experiences using different cleaning methods is always interesting to me - you just never know when someone will find a new product or combination of products that'll work a little better and/or faster than the old methods, and with any luck, be a little safer to use.

 

[Forum Boss]

While Wipe-Out is no panacea, I think the concept of foam is a good one. When applied correctly the foam will carry solvent to virtually the entire surface of the bore.

Imagine you are trying to paint the inside of your barrel. If you were to apply red paint on a patch do you think it would evenly coat the bore?

Or would it leave most in the first 1/4 of the barrel, and then thin streaks elsewhere?

I think people CAN get better solvent coverage in the bore by using wet mops, or using a bottle with a narrow sprayer tip that fits the bore or breech.

Back to Wipe-Out, I think it takes some technique to get the saturation level maxed out. And I always apply twice BEFORE patching out. This is to increase the concentration in the bore.

 

[Rustystud]

Lots of interesting thoughs have been posted. I bore scope every barrel I install. Jack Kreiger makes fine barrels and I can hardly imagine a improperly finished barrels left his company. There are exceptions to the rule. Is it a Kreiger cut rifle barrel or a criterion button rifle barrel out of the kreiger shop? Because of the way cut rifling barrels are made some are lapped and some are not. I would expect any barrel made by Kreiger to be settled in by the first 100 rounds.

I also would recomend trying Montana Extreme, With ecepetion to none it is the best copper solvent period.

The other altunative is to remove it electronically with a "foul out rod" and some DC current.
Rustystud

 

[fdshuster]

I believe you have an issue with Krieger. Over the past 12 years I've bought over a dozen Shilen, Hart & Krieger barrels, mostly stainless, 2 chrome-moly, and have never had a copper fouling problem as you've described. I would clean the barrel, within reason, making certain it is dry, then inspect the interior with a "Hawkeye" borescope. If you see anything other than a glass smooth surface, completely free of reamer/tool marks across the lands and grooves, it would immediately be returned to Krieger. If the barrel has been properly hand-lapped, there is no excuse for anything other than a perfectly smooth surface. Just my suggestion/ what I would do.

 

[TOPOsniper]

Thanks for all the advice gentlemen, and thanks to JeffVN for describing his q-tip method,again) for everyone else. The barrel is a cut-rifled tube. I did observe when cleaning the barrel "before" I ever shot it that it was quite dirty; so the smith didn't clean it after shooting however many test rounds through it before shipping it to me which is my guess why it already had a suprising amount of copper after only four rounds through it.

The KG products came in today so I'll try that out and see how it does.

Thanks

 

[trgtsnpr]

I have had the copper build up problem too i was told to use BORE TECH ELIMINATOR that stuff is great i put 2 wet patches through the barrel then run the a eliminator nylon brush in and out for every bullet i shoot my barrel looks like the day i got it.

 

[L W P]

I agree on https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...2-copper-remover-bore-cleaning-solvent-liquid. This stuff works Great. Not sure how it can work so well with out a heavy ammonia smell,but it does. Wet patch 5 or 6 times and let set for how ever long you have time for and then wet patch 5 or 6 more and copper is usually gone. I always let my rifle soak with the barrel pointing downward resting against the inside corner wall so as not to fall over. Also a little trick that I use is to set the end of the barrel into a Dixie cup with some round cotton pads to protect the crown and soak up the blue solvent as it runs down and out the barrel. I feel this method works well as far as keeping the solvent contained and letting it run down the lands and groves. The bottle even says that it's a rust preventive and can leave it in the barrel until you are ready to shoot again, but dry patch before firing. That's why I say leave it in for as long as you want. It still works great with fast cleaning, but if I don't have time at the range to clean I take my time at home the next day letting usually 3-4 rifles soak over night. Also you do need to use aluminum jags and nylon brushes so as not to get a false reading.