Can someone help take the mystery out of reamers for my 223 F TR

[Linko]

I have never had a new rifle built or had a chamber reamed on a rifle. I would like to have my Savage Model 12 F TR .223 target rifle (single feed) reamed to permit accurate use of 80, 80.5 and 90 gr type bullets. I have read about this in so many posts but after a while it leaves me lost. I am by no means knowledgable on this subject, but I dont want to just rely on the opinion of gunsmith shop. I am a low dollar simple man and cant afford to have one of the top smiths work over my factory rifle.

I think this task is all about freebore and having enough space to accept these long bullets. Can some one distill this down to a couple of choices and which reamer exactly we are talking about?

thanks for helping a newbe.

 

[Darrel Martin]

The formula to get the 90 vld's to work in a 223 has been worked out by Pitcairn and others.One needs a 7 twist barrel preferably about 30 inches long,a long freebore {.169 as stated by gstaylorg},Lapua brass, cci 450 primers, and meticulous reloading technique as errors are magnified at long range in a small case.

The Berger 90 vld shines at about 2850 fps.If you make it work, the 90 has a better bc than any of the 6mm Berger bullets.

I researched this topic as I want to build a long range setup for my grandkids to shoot and they are from one to five at present.Dave Manson is building a reamer off of a 223 Ackly case with a 90 vld set up to have .175 freebore. This should let me achieve 2850 easily with very low recoil. I just hope I don't wear out he barrel before my grandkids get big enough to shoot!

Pitcairn's article " Mouse on Steroids" is almost half way through this file..
http://www.dcra.ca/Marksman/Marksman%20Summer%20Autumn%202012.pdf

 

[Linko]

it looks like the 80's are mutually exclusive with the 90. Meaning if I need .169 freebore for the 90 that is too much freebore to shoot the 80's.

So if I am going to be shooting 1000yd the 90 is the bullet, with a freebore around .169.

Otherwise if I am shooting down in the lower distances (200 - 600) the 80's are the bullets i should be using, along with their recommended freebore ( .120 ?) . then that is what I should have the chamber cut for. (maybe that is the dimension of my rifle right now?) Not sure how to accurately measure my chamber freebore?

I am no where at the level of shooting to be packing up my rifle and heading off to a national match to compete. I have access to a 200 - 500 yd range that I regulary shoot and a longer range across the state that would require a overnight trip. So me shooting at 1000 yd would be a while before I could be shooting that long a distance.

it looks like my original post question isn't accurate, mixing 80 and 90 bullets in the same freebore.

it that right?



thank you very much for the link.

 

[Dgd6mm]

First, I think you should answer this one important question, what distances do you wish to shoot with the .223?

 

[skiutah02]

I have a 223R with the 0.169 freebore and it can shoot both the Berger 80vlds and the 90vlds well. Have shot the 80s out to 900 with very respectable results (dead calm evening practice match 200-11x) and the 90s in matches at 1000. They keep up with the 185 very well.

Everybody seems to like targets, so here are some targets. Same rifle, same barrel.

1. An early seating depth test with the 80s. jammed 10 and jumped 40 at 100yds
2. 80vlds at 300 yds load testing
3. 80vlds at a 300 m match (electronic target, 10 shots)
4. 90vlds at 300 yds (10 shots)
5. 90vlds at last weeks match (25 shots, yeah embarrassing that I needed to move scope down 2 clicks...)

Hope this helps, Drew

 

[Linko]

First, I think you should answer this one important question, what distances do you wish to shoot with the .223?

Midrange

 

[skiutah02]

As I mentioned with regard to the 80.5s in my first response and Drew added with the 80 VLDs above, seating the 90s and 80-somethings with the same long freebore chamber (0.169") is not an either/or. You can seat both, but under most circumstances even the 80-somethings would be single-feed (ie. too long for most mags). Because of that, I personally have no good reason to load the 80.5s in that particular rifle when they are significantly outperformed in every way by the 90s. However, if you want to load and shoot both, it can absolutely be done.

I have also shot the 90 VLDs at 1000 yd and my experience is the same as Drew's; they can more than hold their own against .308s shooting 185s. At 600 yd and 300 yd, they're absolutely deadly if you have them shooting well. So in my mind, the actual distance you intend to shoot really has no bearing. In comparison, I have not used the 80.5s at 1000 yd, although I know some people that have. Even at well in excess of 3000 fps, the 80.5s are giving up quite a bit to a good 155 bullet in terms of wind resistance at 1000 yd. So I'll reiterate that for me, there is no good reason to shoot the 80.5s when the 90s are so much better. Of course the caveat to that is that the 80.5s are definitely easier to load; very tolerant of seating depth and not too finicky. But if you can get the 90s to shoot, they are the better way to go IMO.

^this

 

[boltman223]

Dave Kiff at PTG sells a reamer for the Berger 90 VLDs with 0.169 freebore. It's known as the .223Rem ISSF reamer. You can also load the 80.5s in a chamber cut with that reamer. They're seated out pretty long, but it will work. I have a rifle chambered with this reamer that shoots pretty well. Once I shot the 90s through this rifle, I never had any reason to go back to the 80.5s. Don't get me wrong, the 80.5 is a great bullet. But it's just not the same as the 90s for F-TR if you can get them shooting well. I have another rifle throated pretty short, not exactly sure how long, out of which I shoot the 80.5s.

Me three. I have a 223 with .169 feebore also and I can add the 80 Sierra MK'S to the list.

it looks like the 80's are mutually exclusive with the 90. Meaning if I need .169 freebore for the 90 that is too much freebore to shoot the 80's.

if I am shooting down in the lower distances (200 - 600) the 80's are the bullets i should be using, along with their recommended freebore ( .120 ?) . then that is what I should have the chamber cut for. (maybe that is the dimension of my rifle right now?) Not sure how to accurately measure my chamber freebore?

it looks like my original post question isn't accurate, mixing 80 and 90 bullets in the same freebore.

it that right?

Not this ^^^ but...

I have a 223R with the 0.169 freebore and it can shoot both the Berger 80vlds and the 90vlds well. Have shot the 80s out to 900 with very respectable results (dead calm evening practice match 200-11x) and the 90s in matches at 1000. They keep up with the 185 very well.

Everybody seems to like targets, so here are some targets. Same rifle, same barrel.

1. An early seating depth test with the 80s. jammed 10 and jumped 40 at 100yds
2. 80vlds at 300 yds load testing
3. 80vlds at a 300 m match (electronic target, 10 shots)
4. 90vlds at 300 yds (10 shots)
5. 90vlds at last weeks match (25 shots, yeah embarrassing that I needed to move scope down 2 clicks...)

Hope this helps, Drew

... This ^^^

.169 freebore will cover the 80's and 90's. I would recommend trying the 90's for midrange too.

 

[memilanuk]

Maybe I missed it somewhere... but what exactly is wrong with the factory chamber you have right now? The ones I have will run Berger 80 VLDs and 82 BTs just fine... they ran 90 VLDs as well, but those had other issues. Barring any physical defect specific to your particular barrel, it will likely shoot better than you expect, as it is right now.

Honestly going by some of the questions you've been asking... you need to just load it up and go shoot. Stop creating problems that don't exist yet. Wear out the factory barrel, and worry about the perfect chamber dimensions when you order your next tube a year or two down the road. You'll have figured out a lot of these answers and what they mean to *you*, on your own by then. And the questions you still have will be a lot more focused as well.

 

[Linko]

thanks everyone for all the great feedback

 

[rmist]

I've been shooting the Berger 80.5's all summer with a .098" FB. They do shoot great !!! I had some good results at 600 F TR. I also talked with some of the members above while I was on this same quest. They are a wealth of info when it comes to the 223. I went with the 80.5's Bergers over the 90's. The 90's while a better choice with ballistics.....they are also almost impossible to find !! I load the 80.5's at 3060 FPS out of a 30" barrel 7 twist.

 

[boltman223]

Maybe I missed it somewhere... but what exactly is wrong with the factory chamber you have right now? The ones I have will run Berger 80 VLDs and 82 BTs just fine... they ran 90 VLDs as well, but those had other issues. Barring any physical defect specific to your particular barrel, it will likely shoot better than you expect, as it is right now.

Honestly going by some of the questions you've been asking... you need to just load it up and go shoot. Stop creating problems that don't exist yet.

I've been shooting the Berger 80.5's all summer with a .098" FB. They do shoot great !!! I had some good results at 600 F TR. I also talked with some of the members above while I was on this same quest. They are a wealth of info when it comes to the 223. I went with the 80.5's Bergers over the 90's. The 90's while a better choice with ballistics.....they are also almost impossible to find !! I load the 80.5's at 3060 FPS out of a 30" barrel 7 twist.

For anybody else looking at the 223 for shooting the 80's, yes the shorter freebore's will work just fine. I used .071 freebore on my first 223. I think it's important to reiterate though, that the longer freebore (.169) will work just as good and allow you to get the same velocities with lower pressures and longer brass life. It is also better for the 90's which I think could benefit (at least brass anyways) from an even longer throat.

 

[Longtrain]

I fooled with 223 for F-TR for a while. Having come from the XTC world, I was used to a Wylde chamber and found its throat length fine for 80 SMKs and the like. However, looking for a reamer for F-TR, PT&G gave me throat of .123, it worked but, after a while there wasn't much neck in the case, but it worked. My new reamer compromised on a throat length of .095.

 

[boltman223]

I fooled with 223 for F-TR for a while. Having come from the XTC world, I was used to a Wylde chamber and found its throat length fine for 80 SMKs and the like. However, looking for a reamer for F-TR, PT&G gave me throat of .123, it worked but, after a while there wasn't much neck in the case, but it worked. My new reamer compromised on a throat length of .095.

How much bullet did you have in the neck (not including the boat tail)? And out if curiosity, did you notice any negative effects on accuracy of other wise?

 

[rmist]

Boltman223... How much is your throat eroding shooting the heavy 90 gr bullets. With my barrel and load and 80.5 grainers it's moving .003" around every 450-500 rounds. That's around when I check it !! The 1st time I measured it when I thought accuracy had dropped off. Changed seating depth to reflect the change and the accuracy came back right away.

 

[boltman223]

Boltman223... How much is your throat eroding shooting the heavy 90 gr bullets. With my barrel and load and 80.5 grainers it's moving .003" around every 450-500 rounds. That's around when I check it !! The 1st time I measured it when I thought accuracy had dropped off. Changed seating depth to reflect the change and the accuracy came back right away.

I haven't spent much time with the 90's actually. I started to this spring and then had some stuff come up and wasn't able to shoot again until July. I can say though, that my other rifle with 80 smk's, i have .015 to .020 of erosion with somewhere around 1900 rounds down it.

One of the guys (skiutah02) I shoot with around here has been using the 90's since last fall, maybe him and gstaylorg will chime in.

 

[Longtrain]

boltman:

I don't have that barrel any longer nor my dummy rounds that set my seating depth, from what I remember the bearing surface of an 80 SMK was in a little less the half the neck. Accuracy was fine, as long as batch to batch or should I say match to match loads were the same.

 

[XTR]

If you are going to target shoot with a bolt gun there is really no reason to run other than the 90VLD unless you want to run it in non-F class IFCRA matches (then you are limited to the 80.5s in 223 and 155.5s in 308). Save yourself the effort of multiple load tests (that said, I have a load for the 80Amax)


I flogged the 90 thing hard, tried all kinds of combinations, yard saled it all and started over, and finally I went to the well and came back with about the exact same combination that everyone else is running.

1. Kiff's .169 free bore reamer. If you don't have the long reamer stop here until you get one.
2. jam 10 to 15 into the lands
3. Varget 24.5 ±.1 grains (that is the load that every shooter I have talked with that is running a 223 is using)
4. at least 1:7 twist, if you are ordering a new barrel I'd order a 1:6.5, but if you are just grabbing something off of the rack a 1:7 will work.


My barrel is a 28 inch Lilja 3 groove 1:7, my next will be 30.

I get ~2800FPS, I anneal my brass every firing, and my 223 is a laser.
Finally, my personal recommendation, never take it past 600 yards. I've always picked up the 308 for long range, but shooting the 90s at inside of 600 I don't feel I give up anything to the 308s, except recoil.


If you try to out smart it and drive them too fast, then I predict that you will meet with great frustration. (my first attempt I fired close to 1000 rounds and never found a load)