Caliber choice between 223 and 300 win mag

[kmcdonou]

I have only been into shooting the last 3-4 years. I have a 17 FB and a 223. Shot a few coyotes and have been enjoying target practice. I want to get into big game hunting (primarily deer and possibly black bear; I live in Michigan) and my dad recently gave me his 300 win mag. He doesn't like shooting it anymore. I have shot it some and although it gets your attention, it's not worse than shooting 12 gauge, 1.25 oz slugs.

Although I could shoot 165 grain bullets through the 300 win mag and use it for deer, it is really more recoil and power than I need in Michigan. I'll keep this one for future elk and moose hunts. So, what I am looking for is a caliber between 223 and the 300 win mag that I can use for big game from deer to black bear. I don't mind if it is slightly light for black bear; I'll just pick my shots more carefully. Granted I could use the 300 win mag for black bear if needed, but I envision using my new rifle as my primary big game gun for Michigan size game.

Some considerations:

1. I reload and it is not critical that the caliber is commercially available, although that would be nice.
2. Brass needs to be readily available and in good quality
3. No complicated steps in reloading, e.g. shortening a parent case that requires thinning necks, fireforming (unless it can be done shooting regular reloads with a minimal loss of accuracy), etc.
4. Has light recoil

One caliber that comes to mind is a 308. It is another 30 caliber and closer to the 300 win mag than I would like. Plus it would be nice to get something lighter recoiling, although I can handle the recoil fine. It is the one caliber that seems like it fits my list the best. Another one is the 243. Granted it is a little light for black bear, but I would need to pick my shots more carefully.

Any other thoughts? I suspect this will be my last rifle a while. I am the type that likes a few really nice toys that are versatile and I use regularly.

Thanks much.

 

[JRS]

Make it easy on yourself. The 6.5x55 or 6.5x47L. Great brass and many bullets from which to choose. Personally…. I would choose something in 25 caliber

 

[krumfola]

I have an m70 Featherweight 30-06 that has served me well for the last 20+ years. It's lightweight and accurate. A few years ago I moved away from a high power variable power and put an FXII 6x36 Leupold on it with an M1 turret. It's the perfect set-up for thickish woods to bean fields where I hunt. If I weren't hunting in bean fields 90% of the time, I would have put a fixed 4x on it.

If I were to ever replace this rifle, the only other caliber I would consider would be the 308 in a very similar set-up. I've never had any luck with the 243 on whitetails beyond about 150 yards. It just doesn't seem to put them down fast enough, little to no blood trail. Then again, maybe it's me.

 

[kmcdonou]

Yeah, the 6.5x55 was another that came to mind. That might be the best choice yet. Curious what 25 caliber would you suggest?

 

[mmcu]

A 7mm-08 would be a fine choice for your needs.

 

[Pawnee Bill]

Yeah, the 6.5x55 was another that came to mind. That might be the best choice yet. Curious what 25 caliber would you suggest?

For that kind of big game hunting I would use nothing under a 505 Gibbs.

 

[JRS]

Yeah, the 6.5x55 was another that came to mind. That might be the best choice yet. Curious what 25 caliber would you suggest?

My suggestion would be the 250AI, or, 257AI. However, there is nothing wrong with standard 257 Roberts or the 25-06

Edit: Black bears are not at all hard to kill.

 

[kmcdonou]

The suggestion for the 7mm-08 caught my eye, and then after doing some research, realize I am leaning toward the 260 Remington. Although brass is less common, it can be created from 243 and 308 cases. Good bullet choices, and light recoil. Powerful enough for all game in Michigan. Can use lighter bullets for varmints, but probably at longer ranges if fur-friendly is important. Seems like a good choice. Any detractors?

 

[JRS]

As you contemplate your choices, something to consider is the SD for a hunting bullet. For instance…. to equal the SD of a 120 grain 25 caliber bullet, which is only 0.007 smaller than the .264 bullet, with the .264 bullet, you have to move up in bullet weight to 135-140 grains. With the 7MM, you have to move up to a 150 grain bullet. More felt recoil, and a loss of velocity. Of course, this is considering it's use as a "hunting" rifle. The "redheaded stepchild" (25 caliber) is a killer Your choice is a personal choice. Don't worry about what is popular, or has received the most press. Weigh the pros and cons The most expensive brass and durable brass is not a necessity for a hunting rifle.

 

[DocDoc]

As you contemplate your choices, something to consider is the SD for a hunting bullet. For instance…. to equal the SD of a 120 grain 25 caliber bullet, which is only 0.007 smaller than the .264 bullet, you have to move up in bullet weight to 135-140 grains. More felt recoil, and a loss of velocity. Of course, this is considering it's use as a "hunting" rifle.

I second the .260 Remington. With the .308 win, cases will always be readily available with a quick size down. Europeans have been using the similar 6.5x55 for everything up to moose for a hundred years.

 

[sawcarver]

You must be planning to hunt in Northern MI? I primarily hunt in southern MI where we have to use straight wall cartridges and have has great luck with 444 marlin and 357 max pistols.

On the few ocasions I've hunted up north I've used a 6.5 creedmoor. It has been effective with 140gr amaxs. I would think 7-08 or 260 would be great as well

 

[jds holler]

I come down in the .243 Win camp. I've never shot a bear with one, but I've shot a bunch of deer (probably 25) and ALMOST always dropped them within 50 yards of where they were shot. Often right where they were shot. My favorite bullet back in those days was the Speer 90 gr. spritzer, which wasn't exactly a game bullet. However, when it hit a buck, damage was catastrophic, and the animal usually decided to pile up right there. jd

 

[XTR]

7-08

I get 2900FPS from a 24" barrel with 140SGKs or 140ABs.

• Short action
• Brass from WW and Lapua or you can make it from any 308s (never bothered myself)
  
• More bullet choices than you can ever try
• Lots of powders work (for a hunting rifle I like 2000MR, great velocity and in winter temperatures aren't an issue with the double based powder)
• Better ballistics than a comparable 30 with less recoil
• Availability of reloading components

Haven't met anyone who has not liked a 7-08 once they try it..

Compared to a 260, the 140gr bullet in a 7mm is right in the middle of it's weight range, whereas the 140 in a 260 is a heavy for class. You can take the 7mm up to much heavier bullets (175/180) and bigger game if you set up for it and keep the ranges reasonable.

 

[Webster]

I have only been into shooting the last 3-4 years. I have a 17 FB and a 223. Shot a few coyotes and have been enjoying target practice. I want to get into big game hunting (primarily deer and possibly black bear; I live in Michigan) and my dad recently gave me his 300 win mag. He doesn't like shooting it anymore. I have shot it some and although it gets your attention, it's not worse than shooting 12 gauge, 1.25 oz slugs.

Although I could shoot 165 grain bullets through the 300 win mag and use it for deer, it is really more recoil and power than I need in Michigan. I'll keep this one for future elk and moose hunts. So, what I am looking for is a caliber between 223 and the 300 win mag that I can use for big game from deer to black bear. I don't mind if it is slightly light for black bear; I'll just pick my shots more carefully. Granted I could use the 300 win mag for black bear if needed, but I envision using my new rifle as my primary big game gun for Michigan size game.

Some considerations:

1. I reload and it is not critical that the caliber is commercially available, although that would be nice.
2. Brass needs to be readily available and in good quality
3. No complicated steps in reloading, e.g. shortening a parent case that requires thinning necks, fireforming (unless it can be done shooting regular reloads with a minimal loss of accuracy), etc.
4. Has light recoil

One caliber that comes to mind is a 308. It is another 30 caliber and closer to the 300 win mag than I would like. Plus it would be nice to get something lighter recoiling, although I can handle the recoil fine. It is the one caliber that seems like it fits my list the best. Another one is the 243. Granted it is a little light for black bear, but I would need to pick my shots more carefully.

Any other thoughts? I suspect this will be my last rifle a while. I am the type that likes a few really nice toys that are versatile and I use regularly.

Thanks much.

You reload. Just because it's a magnum doesn't mean you have to load to the high FPS. Per the Berger manual you can load a 300 Win Magnum to between 2800 - 3300 FPS with 165 gr bullets. If you load to about 2800 fps you have 308 Win ballistics and recoil. Less powder and it saves you the cost of another rifle and scope (About $2000 saved).

 

[SheepDog]

The 6mm Remington is based on the 7mm Mauser cartridge and cannot be made from 308 brass. You can make a 243 case from the 308 brass just as the 7-08 is based on the 308 brass. The 7-08 has most of the coverage needed for deer from small to large and elk. It is an easy match for even huge (500 pound) black bear. Brass is plentiful and inexpensive. The 257 is an adequate round too but around here brass is hard to find whether it is for the 257, 7mm or 8mm. (all based on the same cartridge)

 

[kmcdonou]

Webster and XTR's posts have really resonated with me. Not that the others haven't offered solid advice. I appreciate the advice I have been given and have considered all of it, researching the various suggestions. Being a practical and versatile guy, I like how the 7mm-08 can handle slightly heavier bullets for big game; has readily available, good quality parent brass; and is still light recoiling.

Yet, downloading the 300 win mag is also pretty appealing. Very versatile, and definitely saves me more than $2000. As I said I like nice toys and have Nightforce scopes on both of my other rifles --Cooper Jackson Varminter/Game models with nice wood--which have been bedded, rebarreled to a larger diameter so I can use suppressors, etc. I don't mind spending money on good equipment and good craftmanship, but it means I can't have a rifle for every niche. I am not rich. I have to be selective, and have versatile equipment. I probably could get rid of my 17 FB and only keep the 223 as a fur friendly coyote rifle and use my 12 gauge for fox and bobcat. I live in the Upper Peninsula and there are more coyotes than fox, and more trees than fields.

Tough decision. Something to think about.

Any problems accurately shooting the 165 grain bullets with the 300 win mag and still being able to go up to a 200 grain, and possibly 220 grain if I ever get the chance to go on a grizzly hunt?

 

[XTR]

If you are going to pay the $$ to go on a hunt for Grizz or Brownines spend $1500 and get a M70 338WM (or a few $$ more for a 375H&H) off of Gun Broker for the hunt, and sell it for what you paid for it when you are back if you want to. For a go to rifle for hunting east of the Front Range I personally think a short action with a capacity similar to the 308 is the way to go.

There is nothing wrong with any of the 308 based cases for a hunting rifle, in fact there is a whole lot right about them. They all bag game with great success. IMO the 7-08 is the most versatile option out there.

My 7-08

 

[K22]

For white tail and black bear I would opt for a 308. However a 270, 30-06, 7mm-08 would be just as effective. I believe the 243 is too light for black bear but would work on white tail. I like the 308 because of the short action and the punch of a thirty caliber bullet. The 165 grain Nosler Partition would be excellent for bear. I don't believe you need a magnum for these critters. The ammo for the 308 is cheaper and the recoil is a lot less than a 300 WM.

 

[Tommie]

Serious ballistics + polite recoil + versatility = 7mm-08 Rem.

 

[long40shot]

If you are going to pay the $$ to go on a hunt for Grizz or Brownines spend $1500 and get a M70 338WM (or a few $$ more for a 375H&H) off of Gun Broker for the hunt, and sell it for what you paid for it when you are back if you want to. For a go to rifle for hunting east of the Front Range I personally think a short action with a capacity similar to the 308 is the way to go.

There is nothing wrong with any of the 308 based cases for a hunting rifle, in fact there is a whole lot right about them. They all bag game with great success. IMO the 7-08 is the most versatile option out there.

My 7-08

What stock is that?