Bullet Runout Issues - Help!

[cjc5062]

Hi all, so I’ve completely gone off the deep end the last few months with precision hand loading. I don’t shoot PRS or anything, but do go out west to hunt every year and shoot often. I enjoy trying to get the most precise loads and accuracy out of my hunting rifles and am just trying to learn as much as possible. I’m focused on 6.5 PRC and 7 PRC at the moment.

In the last few months I have completely upgraded my reloading set up. I’m now running the following setup: Area 419 Zero 2 Press, Area 419 Full Length Micrometer Sizing Dies, Short Action Customs Infinity Arbor Seating Die, Amp Mark II Annealer, Amp Press, Henderson Trimmer, Primal Rights Primer, Ingenuity Precision Powder Trickler with Sartorius Scale, Mitutoyo calipers, Mitutoyo micrometer, Area 419 comparator set, Area 419 Powder Funnel and tube extensions, Accuracy One Concentricity Guage with Mitutoyo dial, and other odds and ends items. I have not yet purchased an Autodod case neck turner, but it has crossed my mind.

I have watched just about every video I can out there, including Primal Rights, Ultimate Reloader, Bolt Action Reloading, F-Class John, etc. and have tried my best to use the same processes in start to finish reloading. I’m currently using new Peterson Brass (sorted to .005” - <.001” neck concentricity), anneal first, then trim/chamfer, brush inside of the neck with nylon brush, powder charge, seat bullet.

I have been able to get down to very good Standard Deviations in my loads (some as low as 3 fps Standard Deviation for 3 shot groups), but cannot for the life of me get consistent or acceptable bullet runout. I’m using Berger Elite Hunter bullets in 140gr. for 6.5 PRC and 175gr. for 7PRC. I take my measurement of bullet runout halfway between the neck of the case and end of the bearing surface (before bullet starts to angle down). My bullet runout measurements range anywhere from .002” to .008”. With the quality of components and tools I’m using, I’m really hoping to get the runout to around .0005” but at this point would take anything less than .002”. I think I may have narrowed this issue to a few things, but would like to get other’s thoughts before I go trying other things:

1. Short Action Customs Seating Die – I’ve heard mixed reviews on the SAC Infinity Die, in that there is too much movement since it is made for any caliber. Thinking of trying Micron dies or anything else that is highly recommended for precision.
2. Henderson Trimmer – The pilot on the Henderson trimmer, while it doesn’t seem to do much to the inside of the neck when trimming/chamfering, I know Primal Rights states the pilot trimmers can impact seating. Although, I know this trimmer is highly regarded by many and used without issue.
3. Change the lubrication for sizing – I currently use Hornady One Shot for lubrication, but this does not necessary get inside the neck well. I’ve heard many shooters using imperial wax as the main lubrication of choice.
4. Neck turning – I have not yet purchased a neck turner, although I’m considering an Autodod. However, in watching various videos, I know getting <.002” bullet runout is very doable without neck turning.

Please let me know if there is anything that stands out to anyone, or if there is something I’m not thinking of. I know bullet runout may not impact accuracy all that much, but its more about the pursuit of trying to get the most out of my loads. It’s also just driving me absolutely crazy lol

 

[Kracken McGraw]

A lot of us with less desirable seating dies rotate the case several times while seating the bullet in small increments. It’s a idea that has been handed down in this Forum and seems to help in run out.

 

[K22]

The pursuit of precision is admirable. But the one statement you made that gave me the hives is, " it's also driving me absolutely crazy". I realize this may have been uttered in jest but all the equipment / processes you posted seem to somewhat support the statement.

It's sound like you are primarily a hunter and a recreational shooter. Of course, we all want the best reloads possible. But in my experience of hunting big game and varmints / predators for close to 60 years now, the latter critters having a much smaller vital area thus requiring a high degree of precision, run out has never been a factor in field success. And yes, for a while I did measure it. For hunting reloads, you can reach the point of diminishing returns at the reloading bench seeking ultimate precision.

The most important aspect in my experience of success in the field is one's ability to hit the vital area under field conditions at the distances you intend to shoot. I submit that time spent practicing field shooting will pay much larger dividends than pursuing a few 0.1's of an inch group reduction at the reloading table and off the bench at the range.

One has to understand the context of the internet web sites. Some are dedicated to ultimate accuracy, which is required in competition shooting, especially benchrest. This is not the case for hunting reloads. Reading wind, mirage and the ability to shoot in different environmental condition and terrain under field conditions are equally important, perhaps even more so.

With that said, it's a hobby, and if part of the hobby that brings you enjoyment is pursuing ultimate accuracy, then I am sure there are other members on this forum that can help with their vast experience in this area.

 

[6BRA]

The resizing process is where the runout comes from. You don't need high end stuff to keep runout at .0005 to .001 on the bearing surface. You just need to know how. I cant release that at this time. JMO

 

[Olspark]

How is the bullet runout affecting your groups? You may be trying to solve a problem that really doesn’t matter for hunting distances.

 

[BoydAllen]

I believe that your problem is that you are working with new brass. Come back and tell us your results starting with once fired brass. There can be other issues as well. Are you turning necks? Are you lubing the insides of your necks for sizing?

 

[cjc5062]

The pursuit of precision is admirable. But the one statement you made that gave me the hives is, " it's also driving me absolutely crazy". I realize this may have been uttered in jest but all the equipment / processes you posted seem to somewhat support the statement.

It's sound like you are primarily a hunter and a recreational shooter. Of course, we all want the best reloads possible. But in my experience of hunting big game and varmints / predators for close to 60 years now, the latter critters having a much smaller vital area thus requiring a high degree of precision, run out has never been a factor in field success. And yes, for a while I did measure it. For hunting reloads, you can reach the point of diminishing returns at the reloading bench seeking ultimate precision.

The most important aspect in my experience of success in the field is one's ability to hit the vital area under field conditions at the distances you intend to shoot. I submit that time spent practicing field shooting will pay much larger dividends than pursuing a few 0.1's of an inch group reduction at the reloading table and off the bench at the range.

One has to understand the context of the internet web sites. Some are dedicated to ultimate accuracy, which is required in competition shooting, especially benchrest. This is not the case for hunting reloads. Reading wind, mirage and the ability to shoot in different environmental condition and terrain under field conditions are equally important, perhaps even more so.

With that said, it's a hobby, and if part of the hobby that brings you enjoyment is pursuing ultimate accuracy, then I am sure there are other members on this forum that can help with their vast experience in this area.

I’m going to go down the rabbit hole regardless, so just want to know how I can get to a reasonable number and what I’m doing wrong.

 

[Bill Norris]

The resizing process is where the runout comes from. You don't need high end stuff to keep runout at .0005 to .001 on the bearing surface. You just need to know how. I cant release that at this time. JMO

Totally agree 100%. The process in most cases is far more in control over runout than the tooling and equipment. BUT, seriously how much does it really matter in a precision correctly chambered rifle is the question ?

 

[cjc5062]

I believe that your problem is that you are working with new brass. Come back and tell us your results starting with once fired brass. There can be other issues as well. Are you turning necks? Are you lubing the insides of your necks for sizing?

That’s def something I’ve considered and mentioned in the post. I haven’t turned necks, but still feel I should be able to get below .002” consistently without, especially when sorting my brass prior to starting. The neck lube is a potential problem I asked about, but not sure if that would lead to the results I’m seeing.

 

[cjc5062]

Totally agree 100%. The process in most cases is far more in control over runout than the tooling and equipment. BUT, seriously how much does it really matter in a precision correctly chambered rifle is the question ?

Yep, that’s why I’m trying figure out where I’m messing up. I mention the tooling and equipment to help eliminate other outlying factors. Understand it is most likely something I’m doing incorrectly.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Someone was quoting a well known benchrest shooter here the other day that said it didn’t matter.

 

[cjc5062]

How is the bullet runout affecting your groups? You may be trying to solve a problem that really doesn’t matter for hunting distances.

I’ll get a flyer once ever 3-4 shots. My SD is always in the single digits and ES in the mid to high teens typically. Shooting gunwerks rifle for both 6.5 PRC and 7PRC

 

[cjc5062]

Someone was quoting a well known benchrest shooter here the other day that said it didn’t matter.

It def matters at distance when you’re getting .008” runout. Many bench shooters will agree with that. Anything below .005” would be tough to tell.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I’ll get a flyer once ever 3-4 shots. My SD is always in the single digits and ES in the mid to high teens typically. Shooting gunwerks rifle for both 6.5 PRC and 7PRC

With your great equipment, maybe a powder change would be more of a answer for the erratic flyers.

 

[Bill Norris]

It def matters at distance when you’re getting .008” runout. Many bench shooters will agree with that. Anything below .005” would be tough to tell.

Really? Erik Cortina one of the top F-class shooters did a test awhile back with .015 runout at 1000 yds. and as he discussed the test he claimed he could see no difference in groups.

 

[Bill Norris]

I’ll get a flyer once ever 3-4 shots. My SD is always in the single digits and ES in the mid to high teens typically. Shooting gunwerks rifle for both 6.5 PRC and 7PRC

Even with lower E S & S D #'s it could still be seating depth not quite happy causing the flyer.

 

[cjc5062]

With your great equipment, maybe a powder change would be more of an answer for the erratic flyers.

Powder charge doesn’t seem to be the issue. When I only shoot .005 and below, I don’t get fliers. And I’m still getting single digit SDs

 

[cjc5062]

Even with lower E S & S D #'s it could still be seating depth not quite happy causing the flyer.

But the fliers go away when I’m only shooting .005” and below. I mark all my cases and record the data

 

[cjc5062]

Really? Erik Cortina one of the top F-class shooters did a test awhile back with .015 runout at 1000 yds. and as he discussed the test he claimed he could see no difference in groups.

I’ve seen multiple videos of guys testing for fliers, and they concluded when you get up that high it has an impact. But even so, I just personally want to be able to load .002” and below. Which should be doable, just need to figure out what’s wrong.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Hi all, so I’ve completely gone off the deep end the last few months with precision hand loading. I don’t shoot PRS or anything, but do go out west to hunt every year and shoot often. I enjoy trying to get the most precise loads and accuracy out of my hunting rifles and am just trying to learn as much as possible. I’m focused on 6.5 PRC and 7 PRC at the moment.

In the last few months I have completely upgraded my reloading set up. I’m now running the following setup: Area 419 Zero 2 Press, Area 419 Full Length Micrometer Sizing Dies, Short Action Customs Infinity Arbor Seating Die, Amp Mark II Annealer, Amp Press, Henderson Trimmer, Primal Rights Primer, Ingenuity Precision Powder Trickler with Sartorius Scale, Mitutoyo calipers, Mitutoyo micrometer, Area 419 comparator set, Area 419 Powder Funnel and tube extensions, Accuracy One Concentricity Guage with Mitutoyo dial, and other odds and ends items. I have not yet purchased an Autodod case neck turner, but it has crossed my mind.

I have watched just about every video I can out there, including Primal Rights, Ultimate Reloader, Bolt Action Reloading, F-Class John, etc. and have tried my best to use the same processes in start to finish reloading. I’m currently using new Peterson Brass (sorted to .005” - <.001” neck concentricity), anneal first, then trim/chamfer, brush inside of the neck with nylon brush, powder charge, seat bullet.

I have been able to get down to very good Standard Deviations in my loads (some as low as 3 fps Standard Deviation for 3 shot groups), but cannot for the life of me get consistent or acceptable bullet runout. I’m using Berger Elite Hunter bullets in 140gr. for 6.5 PRC and 175gr. for 7PRC. I take my measurement of bullet runout halfway between the neck of the case and end of the bearing surface (before bullet starts to angle down). My bullet runout measurements range anywhere from .002” to .008”. With the quality of components and tools I’m using, I’m really hoping to get the runout to around .0005” but at this point would take anything less than .002”. I think I may have narrowed this issue to a few things, but would like to get other’s thoughts before I go trying other things:

1. Short Action Customs Seating Die – I’ve heard mixed reviews on the SAC Infinity Die, in that there is too much movement since it is made for any caliber. Thinking of trying Micron dies or anything else that is highly recommended for precision.
2. Henderson Trimmer – The pilot on the Henderson trimmer, while it doesn’t seem to do much to the inside of the neck when trimming/chamfering, I know Primal Rights states the pilot trimmers can impact seating. Although, I know this trimmer is highly regarded by many and used without issue.
3. Change the lubrication for sizing – I currently use Hornady One Shot for lubrication, but this does not necessary get inside the neck well. I’ve heard many shooters using imperial wax as the main lubrication of choice.
4. Neck turning – I have not yet purchased a neck turner, although I’m considering an Autodod. However, in watching various videos, I know getting <.002” bullet runout is very doable without neck turning.

Please let me know if there is anything that stands out to anyone, or if there is something I’m not thinking of. I know bullet runout may not impact accuracy all that much, but its more about the pursuit of trying to get the most out of my loads. It’s also just driving me absolutely crazy lol

Are you using the expander ball in the die when sizing? If so, this could be part of what contributes that that kind of runout. You might try just sizing your cases without that expander ball in the die, then use an expander mandrel to expand the necks to the neck tension you're after???

You didn't mention your cleaning process, that too might be involved since annealing will leave an abrasive film on the inside and outside surface of the necks. That abrasiveness can produce enough drag to affect seating (even with some of that lube you're using) that's contribute to seating issues also leading to some of that runout. I don't find running a brush through the neck good enough. What I like to do is anneal then clean the outside of the necks with some steel wool, size (no expander ball) using Imperial Sizing Die Wax, dry tumble clean with medium grain rice, expand necks with expander mandrel then trim to length. . . then they're ready to load and not need any lube in the necks due to the dry tumble with rice after sizing. I get less than .001 TIR. OH, and what also helps a lot is my sizing die (a Forster FL die) has been honed so that it only reduces the neck to .002 below where I'll expand it to. Working the neck very little helps.