Bullet run out how much matters?

[Uncle Ed]

uncle ed, Got question are you trying to become moderator on this site? Your on 4/5 sites and you pretty much follow Bart. Let's be honest your uncle nick. and you know me from those site's and that I'm life member VFW, USMC ,Vietnam 1965,Life member member NRA. I guest you and Bart set something up. You both know I didn't take to kindly what Bart said Carlos Hathcock. You both deserve each other.

oldroper
I do not know what you are talking about and I have never used the screen name uncle nick.

But I can tell you I think that Bart B. and Uncle Nick are legends in their own minds.

Dusty Stevens
Uncle Ed is RCBS where Bart is a Lee Loader and thinks he is a God like moderator.

I also think this thread about runout has turned into a run on posting and a few posters here are playing with their dangling participle.

 

[dkhunt14]

I think this thread got derailed and turned into a pissing match between Uncle Ed and Bart. It started out as a meaningful thread of importance of runout and turned into a personal vendetta. Chambers as big as some referenced have nothing to do with runout. Most guns on here are custom chambers and alot tighter then those recently referenced. Matt

 

[Uncle Ed]

I think this thread got derailed and turned into a pissing match between Uncle Ed and Bart. It started out as a meaningful thread of importance of runout and turned into a personal vendetta. Chambers as big as some referenced have nothing to do with runout. Most guns on here are custom chambers and alot tighter then those recently referenced. Matt

Bart B. and Uncle Nick tag teamed oldroper in another forum where Uncle Nick is the moderator.

D. Moran in this forum also does not like Bart B. and traded words with him.

Moral of story, not many people have M14/M1A benchrest rifles.

And Bart B. and F. Guffey are not everyone's favorite posters. And they both have their heads stuck up their datum.

Simple question I ask?
How much bullet run out does it take to make a difference? I am not interested in theory and the obvious answer only in answers that have been tested and proven.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Mr. Guffey is a reloading God, been so since the beginning

But its only a little past 8:00 am and most of night shift isn't home yet.

 

[dkhunt14]

Moral of story, not many people have M14/M1A benchrest rifles.

Not many Benchrest shooters have M14 or military type rifles. What reloading tactics that apply to them usually doesnt apply to Benchrest rifles. I agree with some of what you said but it should stay on topic. Matt

 

[Joe Salt]

Matt I know myself after reading most of this garbage! I check run-out Occasionally but I have by accident jammed a round sideways in the chamber trying to get my shots down range because of the wind. And it had no effect on the accuracy. The shots still were in the group. So if you have .002-.004 I would not worry about it.

Joe Salt

 

[Lucky Shooter]

Very basic questions-----specifically for bolt actions.

1) A lot of this general discussion centers around the striker/firing pin providing the force
to push the case shoulder into the chamber shoulder-----thereby centering that part of the case.

Why not size the case for a slight crush fit in the chamber ? Same centering effect except that
it is a static condition until the striker falls.

2) Some amount of verbiage about the extractor/ejector pushing the base of the case off center.

This probably comes from Heresy 101-----straight from the Witchcraft book----but----why not
barely remove the dreaded bolt click at the top or even leave a wee bit of it ? Would this not tend to
center the rear of the case ?

Dusty has come up a very simple but wise comment-----in essence, Identify the loading step
where bullet runout occurs.

My goal is to produce a case with zero runout from case web to internal case mouth. When I can handle
or closely approach this, I'll start working on bullet seating.

My gut feel, without any support data, is that most of my bullet runout is introduced when seating
the bullet.

Thanks for any replies.

A. Weldy

 

[Sixgun]

I too use Redding bushing dies and competition seating dies. A tip to lower run out, this may surprise you but after you seat the bullet, lower the ram so you can get your finger on the loaded round and rotate it one third and raise the ram, then do it again. It doesn't take long and then check your run out. Make a comparison with several rounds. I do this for my match loadings.

Wouldn't it be better to turn it 180 since the error can only be in one direction since its round?

 

[stifffingers]

Wouldn't it be better to turn it 180 since the error can only be in one direction since its round?

If it is the seating stem that is seating the bullet to one side, a 180 degree rotation will just push it the same amount in the opposite direction.

 

[chkunz]

If it is the seating stem that is seating the bullet to one side, a 180 degree rotation will just push it the same amount in the opposite direction.

This is an easy test to do if you would like to know.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If it is the seating stem that is seating the bullet to one side, a 180 degree rotation will just push it the same amount in the opposite direction.

Since it will already have a specific amount of runout (tilt) in one direction after the first stroke, the 2nd stroke 180 degrees around might just push it the exact same amount in the opposite direction, thereby squaring it up.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If you have a seater causing runout- scrap it. Life is way too short to waste on the cheapest part of a loading setup thats the most likely to be right because its the easiest to get right. A chamber reamer, a cheap wilson blank and a halfway hobbyist gunsmith should be able to get that perfect- no heat treating involved! $55 and youre all set with one less worry

 

[snakepit]

So we now have a Navy test, how many sides does a ship have?

A ship has 4 sides: port, starboard, bow and stern.

 

[Sixgun]

Since it will already have a specific amount of runout (tilt) in one direction after the first stroke, the 2nd stroke 180 degrees around might just push it the exact same amount in the opposite direction, thereby squaring it up.

It's what I do for sizing and seating. It definately helps. For seating it's not enough to just turn it 180 though. I believe the bullet should be left long a couple thousandths on the first stroke then final depth on the second.

 

[Bart B.]

A ship has 4 sides: port, starboard, bow and stern.

You forgot topside, the opposite of below decks.

 

[Bart B.]

If it is as simple as a "grade school math formula", you can skip checking with your gun God, because it would be nothing more then a in general inclusive reference prediction. For a conclusive mathematics formula, it would have to be fairly complex, that would have to include both coefficients of friction of the case neck and bullet jacket material, as well as tensile strength input based on the amount of interference fit, and both neck wall thickness and hardness, in order to have any factual bases for predictions.

You've just revealed your ignorance of the facts that all those conditions contribute to the force needed to push a bullet forward in a case neck. Don't over complicate simple stuff. I think you're smart enough to do that.

Do you have a lot of scar tissue throughout your body?

Use a hand scale and cartridge clamps to pull it out an amount equal buller jump to the rifling. Or completely out which is the industry standard.

 

[Bart B.]

2) Some amount of verbiage about the extractor/ejector pushing the base of the case off center.

This probably comes from Heresy 101-----straight from the Witchcraft book----but----why not

I measured that actually happening. My Mauser type claw extractors push case rims against bolt face shrouds or case body back ends against chamber walls when bolts are in battery on a chambered case. Some of us have the wherewithal to do that. Others can easily figure it out. The naysayers and disbelievers are something else.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I measured that actually happening. My Mauser type claw extractors push case rims against bolt face shrouds or case body back ends against chamber walls when bolts are in battery on a chambered case. Some of us have the wherewithal to do that. Others can easily figure it out. The naysayers and disbelievers are something else.

Thats gotta be a pretty sloppy chamber. I agree the mauser claw is strong and can push a case but in reality the mausingfield is the only action used in modern times that has that extractor and nobody in the game theyre used in cares about the runout issues. It just doesnt matter that much

 

[Uncle Ed]

A ship has 4 sides: port, starboard, bow and stern.

A ship has seven sides.
1. Top side
2. Bottom side
3. Port side
4. Starboard side
5. Inside
6. Outside
7 And Come along side

P.S. My dad was a retired Navy Chief, a Airedale, and always said if your stripes are not green your a nobody.

 

[Bart B.]

Thats gotta be a pretty sloppy chamber. I agree the mauser claw is strong and can push a case but in reality the mausingfield is the only action used in modern times that has that extractor and nobody in the game theyre used in cares about the runout issues. It just doesnt matter that much

Chanbers are SAAM minimum spec, not sloppy.

I don't think it matters of there's .0001" or .0100" clearance from pressure ring to chamber wall. All extractors push case heads sideways. Unless there is zero clearance from case rim to bolt shroud.

I agree, rurnout ain't a big issue. There's bigger fish to fry. 1% of bullet diameter is good to go if measured the right way.