Bullet run out how much matters?

[Bart B.]

A cartridge can just lay in the bottom of the chamber, and this depends on case base diameter, chamber diameter and the type action. And the proof of this is the fired case will expand more on one side.

My cases headspacing on shoulders are driven by firing pins full forward in the chamber against the chamber shoulder. There's clearance all around their body to the chamber except where their pressure ring is pressed against the chamber by the extractor.

The thin part of the case body expands the most. It can be anywhere around the case as proved by firing pin imprint orientation showing how the case was in the chamber when fired.

None of my bolts do anything to hold the case head against their face. Theres a few to several thousandths clearance. This is done to ensure case shoulders can stop against chamber shoulders supporting the case for firing pin impact.

Please stop spreading myths.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Dear Bart B.

You completely dodged the subject, especially about the effects of case and chamber diameter and the fact a case "CAN" just lay in the bottom of the chamber.

I'm beginning to think you have very brown eyes and "YOU" were a cook in the Navy.

Again if you have a skinny cartridge and a fat chamber with no case support from the bolt face the case will lay in the bottom of the chamber.

Below is such a fired case that expanded more on one side. A small diameter case will lay in the bottom of the chamber because of gravity. You pull the trigger and the firing pin hits the primer holding the case off center in the rear of the chamber. The cartridge goes bang and the case will expand more on the side that has more clearance.

Below the British Enfield chambers were so large in diameter a rubber o-ring is used to hold the case against the bolt face when fire forming new cases. And when the rubber o-ring was compressed it flowed around the base of the case into the chamber and centered the rear of the case in the chamber.

Below I have fire formed 50 .303 British cases using a rubber o-ring to hold and center the case against the bolt face. A Enfield rifle at max military headspace can have .016 head clearance and new commercial cases can just lay in the bottom of the "FAT" chamber.

Below is a 30-06 SAAMI cartridge and chamber drawing and minimum case diameter can be .4618. And maximum chamber diameter can be .4728, meaning the chamber can be .011 larger in diameter than the case diameter. So there is a reason why match chambers are smaller in diameter so let that soak in.

So don't tell me I'm spreading myths, what I have said here comes from experience and not guesses. I can't tell you how many milsurp rifles I have collected that I had with large diameter chambers. And how warped a skinny commercial case will be after being fired in a large diameter chamber. And the same applies to the Ruger #3 rifle I had in 45-70. I had to have a machinist open up the base of my RCBS full length die to keep from over working the base of my cases. And a .303 Enfield and the Ruger #1 and #3 rifles do not have a ejector pushing the case forward. Meaning once the action is closed the case can just lay in the bottom of the chamber.

In closing Bart B. you need to get over yourself and try and tame your oversized ego.

 

[Bart B.]

So a 30-06 case cannot be driven forward by the firing pin centering its shoulder in the chamber shoulder raising its body off the chamber bottom? And have a few thousandths head clearance to the bolt face when fired?

My Winchester extractors minimum clearance to bolt face is about .080" and 30-06 rims are about .050" thick. That leaves about. 030" clearance for rims to fit in. It's impossible for those extractors to pull case heads against the bolt face.

308 rims are about .055" thick so they've got about .025" clearance to slop around in.

 

[Uncle Ed]

So a 30-06 case cannot be driven forward by the firing pin centering its shoulder in the chamber shoulder raising its body off the chamber bottom? And have a few thousandths head clearance to the bolt face when fired?

How many off center firing hits have you ever seen.

Even a rifle cartridge with a shoulder doesn't mean the chambers shoulder will lift the rear of the case.

Below a 22-250 fired in a Ruger #1 rifle that does not have a ejector. This happens with small diameter cases and large diameter chambers. So tell us again how the chambers shoulder will lift the base of the case and center the rear of the case in the rear of the chamber.

Your inexperience with different type actions other than what you were told about the M14 is showing.

Below why the rubber o-ring was used to fire form .303 British cases in the Enfield rifle. And the same applies to new belted cases where the case shoulder is short of the chambers shoulder.

Below 45-70 cases bulging at their base, again a small diameter case fired in a large diameter chamber.

I have seen fired cases set on their base that are leaning to one side like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. And this was because the case was laying in the bottom of the chamber when it fired.

And did you cover this below in Navy A school????

Or wonder why Lake City 7.62 cases are thicker in the base and made of harder brass.

P.S. Don't tell F. Guffey about this, he doesn't have a thick enough feeler gauge to fix the datum.

 

[fatelvis]

How many off center firing hits have you ever seen.

Even a rifle cartridge with a shoulder doesn't mean the chambers shoulder will lift the rear of the case.

Below a 22-250 fired in a Ruger #1 rifle that does not have a ejector. This happens with small diameter cases and large diameter chambers. So tell us again how the chambers shoulder will lift the base of the case and center the rear of the case in the rear of the chamber.

Your inexperience with different type actions other than what you were told about the M14 is showing.

Below why the rubber o-ring was used to fire form .303 British cases in the Enfield rifle. And the same applies to new belted cases where the case shoulder is short of the chambers shoulder.

Below 45-70 cases bulging at their base, again a small diameter case fired in a large diameter chamber.

I have seen fired cases set on their base that are leaning to one side like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. And this was because the case was laying in the bottom of the chamber when it fired.

And did you cover this below in Navy A school????

Or wonder why Lake City 7.62 cases are thicker in the base and made of harder brass.

P.S. Don't tell F. Guffey about this, he doesn't have a thick enough feeler gauge to fix the datum.

That looks like fire-forming at it’s finest!

 

[Bart B.]

Even a rifle cartridge with a shoulder doesn't mean the chambers shoulder will lift the rear of the case.

Never said it did. But pressure inside will lift it as it expands. Exactly like putting 100 psi in a flat tire that makes it very round raising the axle with it.

The sliding extractor in a locking lug at 6 o'clock will often push the back of the case up.

I don't care about nor have intrest in ancient rimmed cases. The issue is about modern bottle neck cases.

What does it mean if the case expands evenly all the way around its pressure ring? Was it resting on the chamber bottom when fired?

 

[Uncle Ed]

Never said it did. But pressure inside will lift it as it expands. Exactly like putting 100 psi in a flat tire that makes it very round raising the axle with it.

I don't care about nor have intrest in ancient rimmed cases. The issue is about modern bottle neck cases.

The firing pin hits and indents the primer and holds the case before the case expands. This is clearly seen in the 22-250 cartridge fired in a #1 Ruger off center primer hit. And the 22-250 photo I posted is not a "ancient rimmed case" and a belted magnum is basically a rimmed case with a really thick rim.

And the issue here is "Bullet run out how much matters?" and not what Bart B. learned about the M14 in the Navy.

P.S. Below is a "ancient rimmed case" designed by Marlin and Remington in 1964.
And that would make you "ancient" when you were in the Navy.

 

[Bart B.]

Yawn........

 

[dolek]

Yawn........

Arguing must take all your energy ?

 

[JFrank]

Arguing must take all your energy ?

That's saying it politely.

 

[oldroper]

The firing pin hits and indents the primer and holds the case before the case expands. This is clearly seen in the 22-250 cartridge fired in a #1 Ruger off center primer hit. And the 22-250 photo I posted is not a "ancient rimmed case" and a belted magnum is basically a rimmed case with a really thick rim.

And the issue here is "Bullet run out how much matters?" and not what Bart B. learned about the M14 in the Navy.

P.S. Below is a "ancient rimmed case" designed by Marlin and Remington in 1964.
And that would make you "ancient" when you were in the Navy.

uncle ed, Got question are you trying to become moderator on this site? Your on 4/5 sites and you pretty much follow Bart. Let's be honest your uncle nick. and you know me from those site's and that I'm life member VFW, USMC ,Vietnam 1965,Life member member NRA. I guest you and Bart set something up. You both know I didn't take to kindly what Bart said Carlos Hathcock. You both deserve each other.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

uncle ed, Got question are you trying to become moderator on this site? Your on 4/5 sites and you pretty much follow Bart. Let's be honest your uncle nick. and you know me from those site's and that I'm life member VFW, USMC ,Vietnam 1965,Life member member NRA. I guest you and Bart set something up. You both know I didn't take to kindly what Bart said Carlos Hathcock. You both deserve each other.

Uncle ed is lyman where bart is sierra

 

[Uncle Ed]

uncle ed, Got question are you trying to become moderator on this site? Your on 4/5 sites and you pretty much follow Bart. Let's be honest your uncle nick. and you know me from those site's and that I'm life member VFW, USMC ,Vietnam 1965,Life member member NRA. I guest you and Bart set something up. You both know I didn't take to kindly what Bart said Carlos Hathcock. You both deserve each other.

oldroper
I do not know what you are talking about and I have never used the screen name uncle nick.

But I can tell you I think that Bart B. and Uncle Nick are legends in their own minds.

Dusty Stevens
Uncle Ed is RCBS where Bart is a Lee Loader and thinks he is a God like moderator.

I also think this thread about runout has turned into a run on posting and a few posters here are playing with their dangling participle.

 

[dkhunt14]

I think this thread got derailed and turned into a pissing match between Uncle Ed and Bart. It started out as a meaningful thread of importance of runout and turned into a personal vendetta. Chambers as big as some referenced have nothing to do with runout. Most guns on here are custom chambers and alot tighter then those recently referenced. Matt

 

[Uncle Ed]

I think this thread got derailed and turned into a pissing match between Uncle Ed and Bart. It started out as a meaningful thread of importance of runout and turned into a personal vendetta. Chambers as big as some referenced have nothing to do with runout. Most guns on here are custom chambers and alot tighter then those recently referenced. Matt

Bart B. and Uncle Nick tag teamed oldroper in another forum where Uncle Nick is the moderator.

D. Moran in this forum also does not like Bart B. and traded words with him.

Moral of story, not many people have M14/M1A benchrest rifles.

And Bart B. and F. Guffey are not everyone's favorite posters. And they both have their heads stuck up their datum.

Simple question I ask?
How much bullet run out does it take to make a difference? I am not interested in theory and the obvious answer only in answers that have been tested and proven.

 

[JFrank]

Mr. Guffey is a reloading God, been so since the beginning

 

[Uncle Ed]

Mr. Guffey is a reloading God, been so since the beginning

But its only a little past 8:00 am and most of night shift isn't home yet.

 

[dkhunt14]

Moral of story, not many people have M14/M1A benchrest rifles.

Not many Benchrest shooters have M14 or military type rifles. What reloading tactics that apply to them usually doesnt apply to Benchrest rifles. I agree with some of what you said but it should stay on topic. Matt

 

[Joe Salt]

Matt I know myself after reading most of this garbage! I check run-out Occasionally but I have by accident jammed a round sideways in the chamber trying to get my shots down range because of the wind. And it had no effect on the accuracy. The shots still were in the group. So if you have .002-.004 I would not worry about it.

Joe Salt

 

[Lucky Shooter]

Very basic questions-----specifically for bolt actions.

1) A lot of this general discussion centers around the striker/firing pin providing the force
to push the case shoulder into the chamber shoulder-----thereby centering that part of the case.

Why not size the case for a slight crush fit in the chamber ? Same centering effect except that
it is a static condition until the striker falls.

2) Some amount of verbiage about the extractor/ejector pushing the base of the case off center.

This probably comes from Heresy 101-----straight from the Witchcraft book----but----why not
barely remove the dreaded bolt click at the top or even leave a wee bit of it ? Would this not tend to
center the rear of the case ?

Dusty has come up a very simple but wise comment-----in essence, Identify the loading step
where bullet runout occurs.

My goal is to produce a case with zero runout from case web to internal case mouth. When I can handle
or closely approach this, I'll start working on bullet seating.

My gut feel, without any support data, is that most of my bullet runout is introduced when seating
the bullet.

Thanks for any replies.

A. Weldy