What is that? 12ga brass case with slug?
Bullet & Barrel makers in collusion...?
- Thread starter IdahoSharpshooter
- Start date
That's a 2000 grain bullet in a four bore cartridge they cost 125 dollars a round.
butchlambert
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urbanrifleman
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A new wildcat cartridge, the 780 John Holmes.
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DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
Amen Dave know doubt.
Yes, + 1 on that!
For confirmation, read the Bulletin report on Paul Hill winning last September's European F-Class Championships (report October 19th 2017) or do a search:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=Paul+Hill&submit=Search
As one authority in the UK guntrade and a knowledgeable long-range prone target shooter with great experience put it:
"Paul won it using the wrong bullet in the wrong cartridge over the wrong powder!" (and in a DIY rifle build too).
The 'three wrongs' were:
180gn 284 Lapua Scenar L. (0.319 average G7 BC v 0.345/8 for Berger 180s, 0.337 / .377 / .400 for the Sierra MK 180 / 183 / 195 respectively. Even the antediluvian 175gn SMK that I shoot has a higher BC and amazingly the new 162gn Hornady ELD-M just 'pips' it too! - all figures from Litz 3rd edition of Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets.)
7mm SAUM cartridge. (In the UK context where the 7-300WSM variant has been 'king' for some years).
Reload Swiss RS70 powder (a Nitrochemie 'EI' high-energy grade) when almost everybody else uses Hodgdon of one grade or another.
Maybe having a combination that performs really well in a variety of ambient conditions - eg 57 V-Bulls (Xs) out of the 100 shots on the ICFRA half-MOA V-Bull, (and remember being in the UK this was shooting alternately with a partner, 'two on the mound' in all six matches, not string shooting, and on manually marked targets), and reading the wind well (as in brilliantly) had just something to do with this success.
(I've long regarded the relatively short-nose 175gn SMK and 180gn Scenar as two of the 'best-balanced' long-range sevens at 284 level MVs. By coincidence or otherwise, I got my best ever GB national League result with the 180 Scenar at 2,830 fps from the 284 with a 'Silver' stage medal in a 20-shot 1,000 yard match, beaten by a single 'V'. ....... not that I make any claims as to even approaching Paul's wind reading skills when he in on form.)
On a parallel course, I've read a few times that it was the lack of collusion that held up the development of 20 calibre designs for some years. The bullet makers wouldn't make twenties because no barrels were available in this calibre, therefore how could there be any demand for projectiles: the barrelmakers would't risk the cost of suitable tooling and possible waste of valuable machine and human time in setting up for .204 when there were neither cartridge nor bullets around to use their barrels. The story (simplified or otherwise [?]) was that it took Todd Kindler doing a back and forth negotiating shuttle between the various parties to obtain agreement that both sides would provide some matching products at the same time.
You know it's funny you made comment about 20 caliber I think am one of the first not necessarily the first try a 20 caliber at a 1000 yds I sent that target to Todd kindler an shortly there after Berger put together the 55gr bullet an it was reasonably competitive at a 1000yds a couple really good shooters hated to see that 20 show up I am not saying it is ideal but it was a competitive cartridge to say the least BC isn't everything the man that shows up with best tune regardless of what he is shooting it will prevail ever time.
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Check out the "Berger Twist Rate Stability Calculator" and you may discover that you do not need that new barrel with a faster twist rate to fire those new bullets. What you read on the bullet box or other bullet manufacture information is often for the worst case situation and not necessarily the variables that you encounter.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
This advise above is part of the problem I described earlier. The required twist rate is based on work done in the early years of bullet designs in the early part of the last century. You plug in certain parameters and out comes a recommended rate of twist. However, with the new designs, they do not always follow the earlier research and may require faster rates. Also, these new bullets may not be fundamentally stable at long range which gives huge problems not normally associated to the flight of bullets.
Any dimwit with a ballistic calculator can compare & ponder the practical limitations of going super heavy bullet/super tight twist barrel. Simply stated, the law of diminishing returns is being realized, with respect to ballistic and terminal performance. Yet, the pendulum's gotta swing to a stop at the extreme end before it starts back the other way. Imho, thats what we're seeing now with these super heavy bullets, and specialized extreme twist requirements...
Going heavier makes sense, until that point where it doesn't. If one compared bullet weights in most calibers, that threshold would appear has already been crossed. The market will correct itself, especially when shooters look beyond hype & marketing, and weigh pros & cons for each, given the conditions they actually shoot in...
Here's my $.02 of 'niche' bullet weights for given calibers I shoot (target and hunting):
.204: 35-45grain
.224: 70-80grain
.243: 95-105grain
.264: 130-140grain
.284: 160-180grain
.308: 180-215grain
Going above/beyond that range gains little/nothing within the distance parameters I shoot each at, most often. Unless one is feeding a real beast with super heavies, they just don't have much to gain over a 'niche' bullet, if anything at all. It's all a balance of b.c. vs. weight & bearing surface which constrains a bullet's velocity potential from any given cartridge. Without sufficient MV to push it, that high b.c. value is just a pretty number...
Going heavier makes sense, until that point where it doesn't. If one compared bullet weights in most calibers, that threshold would appear has already been crossed. The market will correct itself, especially when shooters look beyond hype & marketing, and weigh pros & cons for each, given the conditions they actually shoot in...
Here's my $.02 of 'niche' bullet weights for given calibers I shoot (target and hunting):
.204: 35-45grain
.224: 70-80grain
.243: 95-105grain
.264: 130-140grain
.284: 160-180grain
.308: 180-215grain
Going above/beyond that range gains little/nothing within the distance parameters I shoot each at, most often. Unless one is feeding a real beast with super heavies, they just don't have much to gain over a 'niche' bullet, if anything at all. It's all a balance of b.c. vs. weight & bearing surface which constrains a bullet's velocity potential from any given cartridge. Without sufficient MV to push it, that high b.c. value is just a pretty number...
In a conversation I had with Bryan Litz, the Berger Bullets Ballistician he stated the recommended twist rates they publish for bullets are continually updated based on current research and testing. It appears that you don't have as much faith in his work as others do.
I did not specifically call out Berger or Bryan. This is a general trend in the industry as the makers respond to a demand from the shooters for bullets with high BC and something new. I am aware that Berger does continually update their designs and information. In fact, have discussed this with Bryan myself.
Somewhere in one of Bryan's books, he says that really accurate spin rate (hence rifling twist pitch) is a very complex task indeed involving multiple computations and difficult even today with our access to electronic computers. This is still done though fully by military ballisticians for artillery shells where the issues ande their importance step up several gears.
All advised twist rates are based on the Millers Rules formula, and as Bryan explains it takes many shortcuts over the full procedures, but is generally good enough and allows a simple calculation to be done on EXcel instantly.
However, as Steve says we're now seeing bullet shapes on models on general sale that look remarkably similar to those I remember seeing in photographs of prototype ultra low-drag artillery projectiles of some 30 or so years ago. We have moved a long way on from the original VLD rifle bullets that Walt Berger starting producing maybe 25 years ago. Just maybe - I don't know - these sooooper long designs start to need some of the rules rewritten.
In case you doubt this and/or think it some sort of attack on Bryan Litz's designs and work, I'd strongly recommend you go out and buy Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Volume I by one Bryan Litz and published by Applied Ballistics LLC.
The first 5 chapters are:
1 Twist Rate and Muzzle Velocity
2 Stability and Drag - Supersonic
3 Stability and Drag - Transonic
4 Spin Rate Decay
5 Effect of Twist Rate on Precision
All five, some 82 pages and many range tests, graphs, and photographs are basically about getting twist / spin rates right for the job and what compromises may be involved. Ch. 3 looks at transonic debastilisation and increasing twist / spin rates with both theory and range-tested practice done with two relatively short .308 bullets - the elderly 175gn SMK and newer Berger 175gn Tactical OTM, the latter designed by Bryan specifically for short-barrel military semi-autos to retain maximum transonic speed stability. They both benefit in 900 yard plus transonic flight from a move to an 8-twist rifled barrel. Yes that's right 8-twist for something we'd reckon that 12 is optimal for.
There is an excellent set of four photographs of powder fouling edged holes in paper from long-range (977 yards estimated to be close to 1.0 MACH) hits, two with 12 twist, two with 8, showing how the actual hole left in the paper is randomly offset for the slower spun bullets and centralised in those from the 8-twist barrel. In the text and supporting material, this is due to the development of the Yaw Limit Cycle in bullet flight and Bryan says that there is disagreement amongst ballisticians as to the speeds it begins to show with estimates ranging from a high of 1,800 fps down to 1,100 which is what we mere mortals who shoot for recreation tend to believe.
The bullets Bryan uses in this stabilisation chapters are the 185 Juggernaut and these 175s and when we start to talk about Yaw Limit Cycle problems developing for them at 1,000 yards in 10-twist rifled barrels, then you really don't want your new surface to air missile-shaped 3,000gn FTR bullet that is one helluva lot longer than this trio to get anywhere near trans velocities.
Talking this over with one of the UK's top F/TR shooters who was our 2016 F/TR league champion just before Christmas, he'd given a recently introduced super-long / pointy 308 heavy a try in one GB F-Class Assoc league round in his championship year, and that was his one (relatively) poor result. This may have been in the GB FCA league's annual 'Long-Range' F-Class match at Bisley with 1,000, 1,100 and 1,200 yard stages, but I don't remember now. This bullet - I won't name it, but not a Berger - had performed superbly in mid-range club match try-outs but something went wrong with it beyond 800 yards and he returned to the 200gn Berger Hybrid pretty sharpish and his winning ways resumed. He'd wondered too if it was a dynamic stability issue in trans speed zones with a 10-twist barrel.
There is a great big experiment going on right now - funded mostly by the users - re not just heavy for calibre bullets (that was the last generation), but soooper, soooper heavy. I'm struck by how much excitement there is around for such and such a bullet that has a stratospheric BC and people queue up to get ever faster twist barrels, then a year or two later you never hear anymore of anybody using the 'wonder-bullet' and the key long-range matches are still being won with those that are a couple of tenths of inches shorter and 15gn or 20gn lighter. The 2017 F-Class European Championships matches won by Paul Hill with the short, blunt, and low BC (all in relative terms) 7mm 180gn Lapua Scenar L shook a lot of our F-Open shooters to the core, and they really are hoping it was a one-off. BUT .... F/TR shooters have actually gone further recently with super-long / heavy projectiles despite being much more likely to approach transonic speeds in long-range matches. (Well, that was before Sierra introduced its 110gn 6mm, 150gn 6.5 etc - we can watch BR and F-Open competitors make them work ... or maybe not!)
Let's just say we're in very interesting times in LR ballistics and shooting and I for one am keeping my hands firmly in my pockets and letting others splash out and show what works or doesn't in real life matches on real world ranges. I still think there is a very hard truth out there though that Dave Tooley was unkind enough to raise publicly in post #47 above
Stan,
Everyone is looking for a material solution to overcome a training problem.
DaveTooley, Sunday at 2:29 PM Report
#47 Unlike Reply
If only we could buy success in a box of bullets! (However, nobody is going to win any 1,000 yard matches these days with old designs like the 175gn Sierra MK 0.308, fine tolerant design though it is. It has to be about getting the balance right!)
All advised twist rates are based on the Millers Rules formula, and as Bryan explains it takes many shortcuts over the full procedures, but is generally good enough and allows a simple calculation to be done on EXcel instantly.
However, as Steve says we're now seeing bullet shapes on models on general sale that look remarkably similar to those I remember seeing in photographs of prototype ultra low-drag artillery projectiles of some 30 or so years ago. We have moved a long way on from the original VLD rifle bullets that Walt Berger starting producing maybe 25 years ago. Just maybe - I don't know - these sooooper long designs start to need some of the rules rewritten.
In case you doubt this and/or think it some sort of attack on Bryan Litz's designs and work, I'd strongly recommend you go out and buy Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Volume I by one Bryan Litz and published by Applied Ballistics LLC.
The first 5 chapters are:
1 Twist Rate and Muzzle Velocity
2 Stability and Drag - Supersonic
3 Stability and Drag - Transonic
4 Spin Rate Decay
5 Effect of Twist Rate on Precision
All five, some 82 pages and many range tests, graphs, and photographs are basically about getting twist / spin rates right for the job and what compromises may be involved. Ch. 3 looks at transonic debastilisation and increasing twist / spin rates with both theory and range-tested practice done with two relatively short .308 bullets - the elderly 175gn SMK and newer Berger 175gn Tactical OTM, the latter designed by Bryan specifically for short-barrel military semi-autos to retain maximum transonic speed stability. They both benefit in 900 yard plus transonic flight from a move to an 8-twist rifled barrel. Yes that's right 8-twist for something we'd reckon that 12 is optimal for.
There is an excellent set of four photographs of powder fouling edged holes in paper from long-range (977 yards estimated to be close to 1.0 MACH) hits, two with 12 twist, two with 8, showing how the actual hole left in the paper is randomly offset for the slower spun bullets and centralised in those from the 8-twist barrel. In the text and supporting material, this is due to the development of the Yaw Limit Cycle in bullet flight and Bryan says that there is disagreement amongst ballisticians as to the speeds it begins to show with estimates ranging from a high of 1,800 fps down to 1,100 which is what we mere mortals who shoot for recreation tend to believe.
The bullets Bryan uses in this stabilisation chapters are the 185 Juggernaut and these 175s and when we start to talk about Yaw Limit Cycle problems developing for them at 1,000 yards in 10-twist rifled barrels, then you really don't want your new surface to air missile-shaped 3,000gn FTR bullet that is one helluva lot longer than this trio to get anywhere near trans velocities.
Talking this over with one of the UK's top F/TR shooters who was our 2016 F/TR league champion just before Christmas, he'd given a recently introduced super-long / pointy 308 heavy a try in one GB F-Class Assoc league round in his championship year, and that was his one (relatively) poor result. This may have been in the GB FCA league's annual 'Long-Range' F-Class match at Bisley with 1,000, 1,100 and 1,200 yard stages, but I don't remember now. This bullet - I won't name it, but not a Berger - had performed superbly in mid-range club match try-outs but something went wrong with it beyond 800 yards and he returned to the 200gn Berger Hybrid pretty sharpish and his winning ways resumed. He'd wondered too if it was a dynamic stability issue in trans speed zones with a 10-twist barrel.
There is a great big experiment going on right now - funded mostly by the users - re not just heavy for calibre bullets (that was the last generation), but soooper, soooper heavy. I'm struck by how much excitement there is around for such and such a bullet that has a stratospheric BC and people queue up to get ever faster twist barrels, then a year or two later you never hear anymore of anybody using the 'wonder-bullet' and the key long-range matches are still being won with those that are a couple of tenths of inches shorter and 15gn or 20gn lighter. The 2017 F-Class European Championships matches won by Paul Hill with the short, blunt, and low BC (all in relative terms) 7mm 180gn Lapua Scenar L shook a lot of our F-Open shooters to the core, and they really are hoping it was a one-off. BUT .... F/TR shooters have actually gone further recently with super-long / heavy projectiles despite being much more likely to approach transonic speeds in long-range matches. (Well, that was before Sierra introduced its 110gn 6mm, 150gn 6.5 etc - we can watch BR and F-Open competitors make them work ... or maybe not!)
Let's just say we're in very interesting times in LR ballistics and shooting and I for one am keeping my hands firmly in my pockets and letting others splash out and show what works or doesn't in real life matches on real world ranges. I still think there is a very hard truth out there though that Dave Tooley was unkind enough to raise publicly in post #47 above
Stan,
Everyone is looking for a material solution to overcome a training problem.
DaveTooley, Sunday at 2:29 PM Report
#47 Unlike Reply
If only we could buy success in a box of bullets! (However, nobody is going to win any 1,000 yard matches these days with old designs like the 175gn Sierra MK 0.308, fine tolerant design though it is. It has to be about getting the balance right!)
wow
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