Blueprinting and accuracy improvement - any proof?
- Thread starter rsilvers
- Start date
Holy Thread Revival
FroggyOne2 said:
LOL!!!!
All I care to say is Frank Brownell, Greg Tannel, Dave Kiff, Dave Manson, and a lot of gunsmiths and machinist have made a good living on correcting problems with factory actions.
The reason custom actions/barrels start out better is they are made of better materials and to higher standards. Compare a custom clone to a factor Remington 700. There are many differences in fit and feel.
When you have a company that produces tens of thousands of rifles it is safe to say some will be better than others.
In 1975 I bought a Remington 700 LA BDL in 30-06 (hunting rifle). I did the following: free floated the barrel, glassed in the lug, did a trigger job, installed a good set of bases and rings and scope. I worked up a good load and the rifle has shot .3 MOA groups at 300 yards.
Three years ago I had a customer bring me a Remington Custom Shop Model 700 P in .308. He said he could not get it to shoot sub 3.5 MOA at 100 yards. He asked me true up the action and rebarrel the rifle. After I trued up the action, threads were out .040" yes that is a correct number. The bore of the factory barrel looked like it was cut with a chisel. I replaced the barrel with a custom barrel. Installed a Jewell trigger. I glassed in the lug and free floated the barrel. The first 100 yard group I shot with Federal GMM 168 grain bullets was in the low .3s. The customer came and shot his rifle three five shot groups all sub .5 moa.
I am convinced the more consentric, co-axial, square with even bilateral lug engagemant the better. Along with stress free bedding, high quality triggers, barrels, precision ground recoil lugs, quality bases, rings and scopes. Quality ammo also is a must. All of these components add to the accuracy equation.
Each action is an independent case and the correction requirements are different with each. If a factory acton is going to be rebarreled with an expensive aftermarket barrel the action should be evaluated to determine what if any it needs to make it the best it can be. This evaluation can only be done if the inspector has the right tooling and measuring devices.
Just my two cent worth
Nat Lambeth
The reason custom actions/barrels start out better is they are made of better materials and to higher standards. Compare a custom clone to a factor Remington 700. There are many differences in fit and feel.
When you have a company that produces tens of thousands of rifles it is safe to say some will be better than others.
In 1975 I bought a Remington 700 LA BDL in 30-06 (hunting rifle). I did the following: free floated the barrel, glassed in the lug, did a trigger job, installed a good set of bases and rings and scope. I worked up a good load and the rifle has shot .3 MOA groups at 300 yards.
Three years ago I had a customer bring me a Remington Custom Shop Model 700 P in .308. He said he could not get it to shoot sub 3.5 MOA at 100 yards. He asked me true up the action and rebarrel the rifle. After I trued up the action, threads were out .040" yes that is a correct number. The bore of the factory barrel looked like it was cut with a chisel. I replaced the barrel with a custom barrel. Installed a Jewell trigger. I glassed in the lug and free floated the barrel. The first 100 yard group I shot with Federal GMM 168 grain bullets was in the low .3s. The customer came and shot his rifle three five shot groups all sub .5 moa.
I am convinced the more consentric, co-axial, square with even bilateral lug engagemant the better. Along with stress free bedding, high quality triggers, barrels, precision ground recoil lugs, quality bases, rings and scopes. Quality ammo also is a must. All of these components add to the accuracy equation.
Each action is an independent case and the correction requirements are different with each. If a factory acton is going to be rebarreled with an expensive aftermarket barrel the action should be evaluated to determine what if any it needs to make it the best it can be. This evaluation can only be done if the inspector has the right tooling and measuring devices.
Just my two cent worth
Nat Lambeth
noload said:
Nice way to dig in the archieves and bring up the past.....
I've shot well with off the shelf Savage Custom Shop rifles, namely 112BT's in the late 90's, all tied or beat National Records in Mid Range Prone just never at a Registered Match or when it was the paperwork was wrong or lost as none counted. But after having them "tuned up" by a guy who knows what he's doing at lprgunsmithing.com they did perform better than "out the box".
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
IMO anyone that doubts that as a general proposition that blueprinting a factory action, will help accuracy needs to get out more. Among those who have smithed and/or shot rifles built around factory actions in the type of competition that produces the smallest groups, benchrest, there is not the slightest doubt. Making them straight, tighter, and concentric yields accuracy benefits that are easy to see on the target. That anyone would doubt this, at this late date in the history of rifle accuracy, is really surprising. Also, mixing highpower accuracy information with benchrest is generally an apples to oranges thing. If you want to discuss what can be done to produce the smallest groups, benchrest is the better reference.
ergonsdad
Precision RAS Tuners
If Accuracy/Precision improvements are the goal there is an easier and less expensive way to improve the precision of a rifle rather than blueprinting. Experience and a lot of shooting has proved the gains from a good barrel tuner allow a Savage action and custom barrel with tuner, to compete and win against some of the best custom rifles in long rang competition. This is not to say that the Savage looks as good as the custom rifle or that a tuner will not improve the custom rifle.
I had a Winchester M70 300 Win Mag with a Boss blueprinted. After blueprinting, with a slight change in tuning the groups were not significantly better.
I would look at adding a tuner before spending a lot on blueprinting.
I had a Winchester M70 300 Win Mag with a Boss blueprinted. After blueprinting, with a slight change in tuning the groups were not significantly better.
I would look at adding a tuner before spending a lot on blueprinting.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
ergonsdad said:
It would be worth looking into.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
There is one obvious point that I guess actually needs to be mentioned. The more out of spec that an action is, the more likely that its performance with be improved by correcting what is wrong with it, and most of the time you can't tell how big of a problem there is without setting it up in a lathe, and if you are going to do that..correctly, you have a good part of the time into the job that blueprinting would take.
Another thing, If it turns out that you are not getting the accuracy from a build that you reasonably expect, and you decide to go back and fix what ever is wrong with the action, that will probably include single pointing the action threads to a larger diameter, which means that you will have to rechamber the barrel, and in the process you will loose about an inch of its length.
For all of the above reasons, many have decided it is foolish to invest in all of the other expense involved in building a rifle,that high accuracy is expected of, and take a chance on the action being dimensionally correct.
For example, a friend, who has been lucky with factory actions in the past finally ran into one that had him going round and round trying to figure out why it was so erratic. He finally checked the action threads, and they were way out. After that was corrected, the rifle settled down and is doing the job that it was expected to do.
From there we get into the economics of buying an action, adding to that the cost of correcting all of its deficiencies. With the cost of this work being what it is, unless you do it yourself, you will probably be better off in the long run, buying either a Remington clone, that does not require correction, or stepping up to a true custom action, made by someone that makes competition actions that do well in some form of benchrest competition.
I can see it now, some fellow will come back and tell us that he has a rifle that shoots lights out, and the action wasn't touched. He may be right. It may very well do that, but why would you want to take a chance? If you are wrong, it will cost you more than if you did it right in the first place. My friend nearly wore out two expensive barrels before he finally figured out his problem, because he and his friends had gotten away with doing less than a full job on other rifles they had built. It cost him hundreds of dollars, and a lot of time. So there you have it; flip a coin or do it right the first time. Who knows, you may get lucky....or you may not.
Another thing, If it turns out that you are not getting the accuracy from a build that you reasonably expect, and you decide to go back and fix what ever is wrong with the action, that will probably include single pointing the action threads to a larger diameter, which means that you will have to rechamber the barrel, and in the process you will loose about an inch of its length.
For all of the above reasons, many have decided it is foolish to invest in all of the other expense involved in building a rifle,that high accuracy is expected of, and take a chance on the action being dimensionally correct.
For example, a friend, who has been lucky with factory actions in the past finally ran into one that had him going round and round trying to figure out why it was so erratic. He finally checked the action threads, and they were way out. After that was corrected, the rifle settled down and is doing the job that it was expected to do.
From there we get into the economics of buying an action, adding to that the cost of correcting all of its deficiencies. With the cost of this work being what it is, unless you do it yourself, you will probably be better off in the long run, buying either a Remington clone, that does not require correction, or stepping up to a true custom action, made by someone that makes competition actions that do well in some form of benchrest competition.
I can see it now, some fellow will come back and tell us that he has a rifle that shoots lights out, and the action wasn't touched. He may be right. It may very well do that, but why would you want to take a chance? If you are wrong, it will cost you more than if you did it right in the first place. My friend nearly wore out two expensive barrels before he finally figured out his problem, because he and his friends had gotten away with doing less than a full job on other rifles they had built. It cost him hundreds of dollars, and a lot of time. So there you have it; flip a coin or do it right the first time. Who knows, you may get lucky....or you may not.
A tuner is fine, but it is not allowed in many competitive shooting sports.
Boyd, everything that relates to accuracy relates back to the days of benchrest, esp when it comes to case prep and good loading of your ammo. When it comes to accuracy, I don't think that there is a difference between whether it is a bench rest rifle or a highpower rifle, the goal is always the same. It is just the application that is different. No matter the style of shoooting, everyonee wants their rifle to shoot bugholes and screamers as much as possible. The smaller the prone shooter's rifle shoots, the more wiggle room he or she has in their ability to hold elevation on the target.
You and I know that we have read many times, how if a highpower rifle will at least shoot. Half moa groups, your good to go to compete. This is very true, but that is also dependant on your ability to hold hard elevation and shoot consistantly good shots. But the better your rifle will shoot, the more leway you have in your area of wobble when shooting. So a person that shoots in the teens, in theory whom has a area of wobble of say 1 moa, would be competitive with a person that has a rifle that shoots 1/2 moa and has a half moa area of wobble.
Also, the smaller your rifle shoots, the more predictable it is to call your shots within your area of wobble.
The ability to make better ammo with the ideas and tools that are available today, I would have to say comes from benchrest, but accuracy is accuracy and it is apples to apples and not apples to oranges as you stated. Not arguing with ya Boyd, just that I feel everything is more related to each other nowadays than you give it credit for.
Boyd, everything that relates to accuracy relates back to the days of benchrest, esp when it comes to case prep and good loading of your ammo. When it comes to accuracy, I don't think that there is a difference between whether it is a bench rest rifle or a highpower rifle, the goal is always the same. It is just the application that is different. No matter the style of shoooting, everyonee wants their rifle to shoot bugholes and screamers as much as possible. The smaller the prone shooter's rifle shoots, the more wiggle room he or she has in their ability to hold elevation on the target.
You and I know that we have read many times, how if a highpower rifle will at least shoot. Half moa groups, your good to go to compete. This is very true, but that is also dependant on your ability to hold hard elevation and shoot consistantly good shots. But the better your rifle will shoot, the more leway you have in your area of wobble when shooting. So a person that shoots in the teens, in theory whom has a area of wobble of say 1 moa, would be competitive with a person that has a rifle that shoots 1/2 moa and has a half moa area of wobble.
Also, the smaller your rifle shoots, the more predictable it is to call your shots within your area of wobble.
The ability to make better ammo with the ideas and tools that are available today, I would have to say comes from benchrest, but accuracy is accuracy and it is apples to apples and not apples to oranges as you stated. Not arguing with ya Boyd, just that I feel everything is more related to each other nowadays than you give it credit for.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
What type of shooting disallows tuners? He was saying a tuner was a great asset only.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Froggy,
I agree with everything that you wrote, but I do admit to smiling a bit when I read of some highpower shooter going to elaborate lengths compare what are really tiny differences in ammunition and then reaching conclusions based on shooting it prone at short range
I really admire the skill of highpower shooters. They do what I cannot come close to doing.
Boyd
I agree with everything that you wrote, but I do admit to smiling a bit when I read of some highpower shooter going to elaborate lengths compare what are really tiny differences in ammunition and then reaching conclusions based on shooting it prone at short range
I really admire the skill of highpower shooters. They do what I cannot come close to doing. Boyd
Boyd,
Is a 1000 yards short distance?
Is a 1000 yards short distance?
Boyd,
Thank you sir! I find yours are very informative as well! I may be an old dog, but I can still learn new tricks!
Thank you sir! I find yours are very informative as well! I may be an old dog, but I can still learn new tricks!
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Cigarcop said:
Bradley Walker
So have you guys established that no gunsmith or anyone else has ever done an experiment to see if trueing does anything at all?
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