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Blowing out primer at below recommended start load 300WM

raythemanroe said:
Deflagration vs Detonation: (I would start off with saying the Tech at Burger is the best advise I have read yet given) As far as I know and have seen (one gun Detonate) under loading your reloads is more dangerous. I have seen a 6mm Rem (not mine) under loaded and make a weird sound (more of a pop) and the primer was blown out and the case had to be forced out..I then researched this and found that powder is designed for deflagration or to burn and build pressure throughout the barrel. When under loading during the ignition process there is a chance of igniting the powder at once and therefore detonating and building pressure to rapidly. At what point this can happen I would guess it varies and could never recommend a under load for anyone..I wouldn't think it would be like increasing your load and tracking pressure signs and velocities because once you reach detonation the $hit hits the fan.

The whole powder charge is always ignited at once... and it is not chemically possible for smokeless powder to detonate.

Nitrocellulose is not capable of detonating. If it were, you would need an explosives license to buy it.
 
CatShooter said:
raythemanroe said:
Deflagration vs Detonation: (I would start off with saying the Tech at Burger is the best advise I have read yet given) As far as I know and have seen (one gun Detonate) under loading your reloads is more dangerous. I have seen a 6mm Rem (not mine) under loaded and make a weird sound (more of a pop) and the primer was blown out and the case had to be forced out..I then researched this and found that powder is designed for deflagration or to burn and build pressure throughout the barrel. When under loading during the ignition process there is a chance of igniting the powder at once and therefore detonating and building pressure to rapidly. At what point this can happen I would guess it varies and could never recommend a under load for anyone..I wouldn't think it would be like increasing your load and tracking pressure signs and velocities because once you reach detonation the $hit hits the fan.

The whole powder charge is always ignited at once... and it is not chemically possible for smokeless powder to detonate.

Nitrocellulose is not capable of detonating. If it were, you would need an explosives license to buy it.


Building pressure to rapidly is called detonation, Same Idea as your truck or old muscle car pinging cause you put low octane in it.. Predetonation to the desired effect
 
raythemanroe said:
CatShooter said:
raythemanroe said:
Deflagration vs Detonation: (I would start off with saying the Tech at Burger is the best advise I have read yet given) As far as I know and have seen (one gun Detonate) under loading your reloads is more dangerous. I have seen a 6mm Rem (not mine) under loaded and make a weird sound (more of a pop) and the primer was blown out and the case had to be forced out..I then researched this and found that powder is designed for deflagration or to burn and build pressure throughout the barrel. When under loading during the ignition process there is a chance of igniting the powder at once and therefore detonating and building pressure to rapidly. At what point this can happen I would guess it varies and could never recommend a under load for anyone..I wouldn't think it would be like increasing your load and tracking pressure signs and velocities because once you reach detonation the $hit hits the fan.

The whole powder charge is always ignited at once... and it is not chemically possible for smokeless powder to detonate.

Nitrocellulose is not capable of detonating. If it were, you would need an explosives license to buy it.


Building pressure to rapidly is called detonation, Same Idea as your truck or old muscle car pinging cause you put low octane in it.. Predetonation to the desired effect

Technical words have specific meanings - "Building up pressure rapidly", is not detonation. Rifles reach peak pressure in ~ 1/1,000 of a second - if the powder "detonated", it would reach peak pressure in less than a 10 millionths of a second, and pieces of the rifle would be found 200 yards away.

We (the shooting community) throw words around loosely, and that weakens our ability to exchange ideas and information.
 
raythemanroe said:
Okay explain why pressure increases drastically when under loaded if deflagration is still happening?

The early stage of firing a cartridge is very complex... and it is a balance of many things in order to make it work.

When a bullet is fired, it leaves the case neck and jams into the throat/leade of the rifling and for a minuscule moment, it slows, while the gas pressure is building up high enough to force it into the rifling and on out the barrel.

This is a critical time, because if the bullet stops, it is extremely hard to get it going again, because it is stuck in the throat, and something called "sticksion" (stik-shun) takes over and then it takes a humongous force to get it going again. Sticksion was discovered by John Bell Blish, when he was studying large artillery. It is the same phenomenon that causes the walls of a cartridge to stick to the walls of a chamber when it is fired (leading to head separations).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blish_lock

When a bullet is in the case and the powder is first lit, normally this stage is the time that the powder also gives off the most gas, because the particles have the largest burning surface area... but since the bullet is barely moving, this is the time when you want a limited/controlled amount of gas given off, so you can start the bullet into the rifling... then, once the bullet is moving faster, and there is a larger volume of space in the bore to fill... then you want more gas given off.

Normally, smokeless powder works the opposite way - it gives off the most gas in the beginning, and then gives off less and less gas until powder is gone.

So, powder has a coating called a "deterrent", which slows the early burning stage to let the bullet get moving. Then, when the flame consumes the deterrent, the burning gets faster so it can generate gas at a faster rate to keep the bullet accelerating out the barrel.

So, the normal sequence is... the primer "lights" the powder, and the bullet gets started... it moves into the throat/leade and the powder gives it slow, steady push past this early resistance, and the bullet starts moving in the rifling... the deterrent is consumed and the powder starts burning much faster, but there is more space for the gas in the bore, and the bullet is now moving fast, and is on it's way.

Now, this scenario is possible when a large case, long bullet, and light load of slow burning powder is fired....

With a large case, and a very long bullet with a long bearing surface, and a small amount of slow burning powder... the primer lights the powder, but the pressure in the case is low - the powder pushes the bullet into the throat/leade, but the small powder charge has not created enough gas to keep the bullet moving and it stops.

Now the bullet is stuck in the throat/leade, and the small amount of powder burns through the deterrent coating and now starts to burn faster... and the bullet is still stuck. The pressure keeps rising and the powder keeps burning faster and faster (because that is what "progressive burning" powders do), and even if the bullet breaks free, it is now moving slowly up the first few inches of the barrel, while the powder is burning fast so it can generate the volume of gas that it should, IF the bullet was accelerating half way out of the barrel, the way it should have been.

So stuff lets go.

Some people have complained of bolts being hard to open with light loads of slow powder, of have had other symptoms of very high pressure,, while using light loads of slow powder, and heavy bullets... but no one has been able to blow up a gun in a lab, that can be traced to the Blish effect.

---

That is how it works.
 
I'm not gonna argue with you but I would suggest reading or looking up "Deflagration to Detonation". When you have a under loaded charge in the case, you have created excessive airspace, So when the primer goes off it will ignite more powder at once igniting the powder through the length of the airspace causing faster burn and pressure spikes, before the bullet has time to exit the case mouth. So you get an explosion rather than a pressure building Burn at a given rate because of the surface area exposed to the primer flash...
 
raythemanroe said:
I'm not gonna argue with you but I would suggest reading or looking up "Deflagration to Detonation". When you have a under loaded charge in the case, you have created excessive airspace, So when the primer goes off it will ignite more powder at once igniting the powder through the length of the airspace causing faster burn and pressure spikes, before the bullet has time to exit the case mouth. So you get an explosion rather than a pressure building Burn at a given rate because of the surface area exposed to the primer flash...

This is such a bunch of myths, I 'm not sure where to begin... but I'll try.

1 - "When you have a under loaded charge in the case, you have created excessive airspace"...

Nonsense - many completely safe charges leave large amounts of airspace in the case. And if this were true, then it would not make any difference what the powder burning speed was - and if this were true, then air space with faster burning powders would be more dangerous than with slower powders... but it is not!

2 - "... So when the primer goes off it will ignite more powder at once igniting the powder through the length of the airspace causing faster burn..."

Because progressive powders "burn" over the surface, and not "on" the surface, if there is more airspace, the ignition pressure is lower, so it starts to burn slower, not faster. Further, the amount of airspace has no bearing on it, because the primer lights the entire bunch of powder at the same time - if it didn't, we'd never be able to have an accurate rifle, because each time it fired, the burning rate would be different, due the rifle position being different, prior to each time we fired it.

3 - "... and pressure spikes..."

Pressure "spikes" is another misused word - a "Spike" is when there is a rapid rise and fall of something,like a power spike on an electrical line from a lightening strike - pressure does not behave that way.

This is a "spike"... ______˄_____ , but in a rifle, there is no place for the pressure to bleed off and fall quickly. There can be fast pressure rises, but there cannot be fast falls, so there cannot be "pressure spikes".

4 - "So you get an explosion rather than a pressure building burn at a given rate because of the surface area exposed to the primer flash... "

The entire surface area of the powder is exposed, because the primer fires through the full powder load. Powder does not burn from the back of the case to the front of the case. It lights instantaneously.
 
Did you check the trim length of the cases. How many times were they fired. In the WSM case I need 1/2 to a grain more with the 210 BT over the 210 VLD. Do you have carbon in the throat? Is the chamber a no turn neck? More info is needed besides what you told. Alliant might not tell about the powder being hot. I spent two and a half hours on the phone telling them about that lot of 25083 and they told me they knew there were hot spots in that lot of powder. They did replace it because I had about 20 pounds of it. After they told me they mix powders when lots are too hot or slow. I decided I didn't need to shoot any more of their powders.
 
From Catshooter:
.... 'but no one has been able to blow up a gun in a lab, that can be traced to the Blish effect'.

Parker Ackley tried for years and never succeeded either.
In his volume one 'Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders' page 91 he gives his experiences (and others) with reduced loads. Although dated, 1962, it is an interesting read.
 
CatShooter said:
raythemanroe said:
I'm not gonna argue with you but I would suggest reading or looking up "Deflagration to Detonation". When you have a under loaded charge in the case, you have created excessive airspace, So when the primer goes off it will ignite more powder at once igniting the powder through the length of the airspace causing faster burn and pressure spikes, before the bullet has time to exit the case mouth. So you get an explosion rather than a pressure building Burn at a given rate because of the surface area exposed to the primer flash...

This is such a bunch of myths, I 'm not sure where to begin... but I'll try.

1 - "When you have a under loaded charge in the case, you have created excessive airspace"...

Nonsense - many completely safe charges leave large amounts of airspace in the case. And if this were true, then it would not make any difference what the powder burning speed was - and if this were true, then air space with faster burning powders would be more dangerous than with slower powders... but it is not!

2 - "... So when the primer goes off it will ignite more powder at once igniting the powder through the length of the airspace causing faster burn..."

Because progressive powders "burn" over the surface, and not "on" the surface, if there is more airspace, the ignition pressure is lower, so it starts to burn slower, not faster. Further, the amount of airspace has no bearing on it, because the primer lights the entire bunch of powder at the same time - if it didn't, we'd never be able to have an accurate rifle, because each time it fired, the burning rate would be different, due the rifle position being different, prior to each time we fired it.

3 - "... and pressure spikes..."

Pressure "spikes" is another misused word - a "Spike" is when there is a rapid rise and fall of something,like a power spike on an electrical line from a lightening strike - pressure does not behave that way.

This is a "spike"... ______˄_____ , but in a rifle, there is no place for the pressure to bleed off and fall quickly. There can be fast pressure rises, but there cannot be fast falls, so there cannot be "pressure spikes".

4 - "So you get an explosion rather than a pressure building burn at a given rate because of the surface area exposed to the primer flash... "

The entire surface area of the powder is exposed, because the primer fires through the full powder load. Powder does not burn from the back of the case to the front of the case. It lights instantaneously.

Your one of the people that I almost always agree with. Myths that people started 75 years ago continue. I had a 7mm Rem mag that I shot with cast bullets and very low powder charges. No-one blows guns up shooting cast bullets with light pistol powder charges. If people try to get technical on this website they are just repeating what they heard or believe. It isn't always factual. After saying that I will mention that the powder can be ignited by heat of compression. A flame doesn't have to touch each piece of powder.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf
Hodgdon reduced loads for youth shooting with only H4895. 60% below a hunting charge. They don't recommend reduced loads with any other powder.
 
Webster said:
After saying that I will mention that the powder can be ignited by heat of compression. A flame doesn't have to touch each piece of powder.

Yup... the powder does not have to be contacted by flame, when the primer fires, the entire inside of the case is heated and pot undera lot of pressure (varying on the primer and case volume)... and then the powder goes through a two stage deflageration process - it is the second stage that makes it progressive burning.
 
When my brother and I were young we put raw linseed oil and a handful of magnum primers in one of the milk cows feed. The very next day the cow kept detonating and the milking shed nearly caught fire.

cow_zps8715d784.jpg


catshooter, Achtung! Earsplittenloudenboomer
 
Bigedp51D, your demand for attention exceeds ‘almost ‘ anything I have seen on the Internet, the OP ask a question, you have nothing, but your demand of attention is something you have no control over.

Reminds me of the question about torque and sizing, you had nothing, so you used duct tape on a torque wrench and tapped it to the handle of a press. Then there was the pressure gage when the OP was asking about CUP and PSI you had nothing, no matter how big the difference, 2 atmospheres of air is close to 30 psi.

“Almost”: There was an exit from a forum by a drama-momma, the exit was on post 51, I tried to get a response but the enabler of such nonsense deleted my request for information, I tried to get a post 52 as in user post count.

F. Guffey
 
Dear Mr. fguffey

The difference between us is I would rather tell a related detonation joke than misquote Hatcher and write "War and Peace" length posting babbling about nothing and boring all of us.
jonbearman said:
Ed I almost spit my soda out when I saw that target. It is good to have some humor once in a while. Keep it up and that was a good post.

Besides I'm a good German and I was only following orders. ;)

P.S. I have read your posting all over the internet and put all of them in the same category as what comes out of the cows backside and splatters on the ground. I'm glad your coherent and your meds did not effect your posting.
 
tobybradshaw said:
Many may find this useful:

Profile > Modify profile > Buddies/ignore list > Edit ignore list > FILL IN USERNAME OF BLOWHARD HERE

I can't put fguffy on my ignore list, I'm fascinated with the stories fguffy tells about how he invented the word headspace and his magic feeler gauge. ;)
 
bigedp51 said:
Dear Mr. fguffey

The difference between us is I would rather tell a related detonation joke than misquote Hatcher and write "War and Peace" length posting babbling about nothing and boring all of us.

P.S. I have read your posting all over the internet and put all of them in the same category as what comes out of the cows backside and splatters on the ground. I'm glad your coherent and your meds did not effect your posting.

Mr. Fguffey.

Don't feel bad - BigEd beats me up every chance he gets.

I just sulk and pout for an hour or two, then go get drunk, and I forget about it - see, it's easy!

;)
 
catshooter

Thank you for your last posting, I could turn this thread into a new income opportunity. I could make and sell bigedp51 and fguffy Voodoo dolls in this forum and the unhappy campers here could stick dull pins in our likenesses and vent their feelings.

Then the doll owner could stuff the doll full of slow burning powder and watch me almost detonate.

voodoo-doll_163_zps06c408a3.jpg


Please PM me, I need to know how many bigedp51 and fguffy dolls to make. I plan to put a zipper in the fguffy's dolls head so you can release and vent all the hot air. But a word of warning, opening the zipper on the fguffy dolls head will increase its headspace.
 
bigedp51 said:
CatShooter

Thank you for your last posting, I could turn this thread into a new income opportunity. I could make and sell bigedp51 Voodoo dolls in this forum and the unhappy campers here could stick dull pins in my likeness and vent their feelings.

Then the doll owner could stuff the doll full of slow burning powder and watch me almost detonate.

voodoo-doll_163_zps06c408a3.jpg


"... almost detonate!!" ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
 

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