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Best scope stands for F-Class and spotting scopes with best eye relief?

I did not use a spotting scope for watching mid-range conditions and or what was happening on paper to the shooters around me.
What angled eye-piece spotting scopes have the best eye relief?
How critical is quality glass when I will be using this primarily for mid-range mirage?

What are some of the most preferred spotting scope stands and why you prefer their features?
 
Am pleased with the Ray-Vin stand and head sold by Creedmoor Sports.

Kowa is pretty much the "go to" scope for shooting sports. For watching conditions and targets with spotting disks, 60-66mm is plenty. Kowa offers an LER fixed eye-piece that most folks use. They also offer a zoom eye-piece, but doesn't have the same amount of eye-relief.

If you are going to be looking for bullet holes at 300yd and beyond, then you will want all the scope you can get and that won't, as often as not, be enough due to the laws of physics. The more light you can gather (bigger objective lens) the better you can see bullet holes, so you may wish to go with an 80mm scope. But, that means a larger and heavier scope.

That said, I use a Celestron 65mm Regal scope which has ED glass (a high quality glass) and find it to work as well for me as the 3X as expensive 80mm standard glass Kowa scopes, which are the most popular. It has served me well for 5 years and no complaints other than it is considerably heavier than the comparable 66mm Kowa, though my understanding is that Celestron has just redone the Regal line, making it about 20% lighter this year.

You can always spend more and get the ED glass Kowa or Leitz or other European models, but you are well into the law of diminishing returns when you do.
 
AR,
First, thank you for your response.
I am not concerned about seeing bullet holes as I will be shooting 600 at a minimum out to 1000.
Long eye relief is important.
What is the eye relief on your Celestron?
Not concerned about weight.

Is there a great advantage with higher quality glass when it comes to reading mirage at 600-700 yards when shooting at 1K?
 
In Raton, I used a Kowa TSN-661 with the 25X LER eyepiece that I bought from a good friend. I don't know that it's "the best" but it served me extremely well. What I like about the scope is the collar that allows me to attach it rigidly to the scope stand and the long eye relief for this bespectacled shooter.

I currently have a Freeland tripod with a Polecat head and I am still playing with this to find the best setup. I like adjusting elevation by just turning knobs on the legs of the tripod. I'm not sure I like having the long tripod legs intrude on my shooting position. As I said, still working on it.

Now as to you last question, I have a theory which I mentioned to someone in Raton, might have been you, but here goes.

If you are getting a spotting scope for the express purpose of reading conditions, such as the heat haze we call mirage, it is my belief, subject to change or the trash can at any time, that past a certain point, the better the glass the less conditions you will see.

If the glass is too good, the resolution too great, it will simply not show as much mirage as a somewhat lesser quality glass scope. I think what I'm saying is that you want good or great glass, which is important for long term viewing comfort and identification, but not so good that it lessens the conditions.
 
Ernie
Thanks for posting this topic. After Raton I have decided to go the same route and start shooting with a spotting scope. However I am debating what set up to go with as well. I have a cheap scope now but have seen the difference between the good glass and cheap glass in terms of clarity when reading conditions. I am leaning toward a Kowa 82with the fixed 25 due to the fact looking through it was like having a tv in front of you. I am curious to see what is suggested here. This should help me decide which route to go. Stand wise there are many good ones out there. I like the Ray vin for what it offers the f class shooter.

Pete Petros
 
I like the the theory, and it seems to make sense...
Okay guys, is Denys on target?
If so, what is that mid-range glass?
Do some of us just have the best glass possible because we can and that is what others use?
If so, I do not have a problem with that. But is the best glass the best at seeing what we are looking for?
Is there an advantage, disadvantage, or does it not matter if you are using the best glass you can possibly afford, for reading mirage exclusively?
Again, this is just for mirage reading.

bayou shooter said:
If you are getting a spotting scope for the express purpose of reading conditions, such as the heat haze we call mirage, it is my belief, subject to change or the trash can at any time, that past a certain point, the better the glass the less conditions you will see.

If the glass is too good, the resolution too great, it will simply not show as much mirage as a somewhat lesser quality glass scope. I think what I'm saying is that you want good or great glass, which is important for long term viewing comfort and identification, but not so good that it lessens the conditions.
 
Pete,
You are welcome.
I am so new to this game (couple of weeks ago), that I have not entered into it with many preconceived ideas.
So, can you see clearer with better glass? I would hope so.
Which quality level of glass does your gut tell you about reading mirage better? Good glass or cheap glass?
Or do you think, as Denys suggested that it would be better to have a certain level of good glass, but just not the best out there?

Petros284 said:
Ernie
Thanks for posting this topic. After Raton I have decided to go the same route and start shooting with a spotting scope. However I am debating what set up to go with as well. I have a cheap scope now but have seen the difference between the good glass and cheap glass in terms of clarity when reading conditions. I am leaning toward a Kowa 82with the fixed 25 due to the fact looking through it was like having a tv in front of you. I am curious to see what is suggested here. This should help me decide which route to go. Stand wise there are many good ones out there. I like the Ray vin for what it offers the f class shooter.

Pete Petros
 
Ernie- I have been involved in competitive high power shooting for over 50 years, so I have seen about every scope and stand variation that is available. If you go to the matches at Camp Perry and look on the line--you will see that the majority of folks use the Kowa scope. I have
been using mine since 1985 and it is still the best scope I have looked through. The long eye relief eyepiece is an important feature, when scoring or shooting. The stand that almost everyone uses is the one made by my friend Al Ewing. http://www.scopestands.com/. It is solid and convenient to use. If you fly to matches, you might find that a two piece rod is easier to pack. If you can afford it get the 663 or 773 with the better lens. It is really worth it. You do realize that you want the lower power eyepiece (25-27) for watching mirage and to see what the wind is doing to folks on each side of your target. With the Ewing stand, you can set it on the firing line so that you can watch the mirage with your non shooting eye and when you see what you want, be able to get your shot off without having to change positions.
One other thing--Everyone should have a copy of Nancy's new book "Prone and Long Range Rifle Shooting" There is a LOT of good information in there.
HTH
Craig
 
Thank you Craig.
I received one of her books in Raton.
You are correct, I wasn't looking for high magnification.
I pretty much could tell Kowa had an exceptional showing, and other brands top models.

I am still wanting to know does an exceptional piece of glass like the Kowa do a better job of "reading mirage" than a good quality spotting scope?
Has anyone done a review, comparing spotting scope on mirage capability--nothing else.
 
Ernie (SEB USA) said:
AR,
First, thank you for your response.
I am not concerned about seeing bullet holes as I will be shooting 600 at a minimum out to 1000.
Long eye relief is important.
What is the eye relief on your Celestron?
Not concerned about weight.

Is there a great advantage with higher quality glass when it comes to reading mirage at 600-700 yards when shooting at 1K?
20mm of eye relief on the model I use. Here are the spec's:
http://www.celestron.com/sports_outdoors/celestron-regal-m2-65ed-spotting-scope.html
I do not agree with the above 'theory' about better glass being worse for seeing mirage. Seeing is seeing (and is the term for how well one sees thru a scope of any type). The better you see the better you can see mirage. We had a very quiet day today at our mid-range/F-Class match. Was easy to watch the mirage through my scope as it moved gently right, then left, then boil, etc. The key to picking up mirage is to find a good background to view it against. The dark horizontal target frame, dirt in front of the target, the rail if shooting silhouettes, etc. And then believe what you see.
 
I've had very good luck in the past with a Konus 80mm scope (set around 25 power) and the RayVin F stand.
If I were to buy a setup today it would be the Giraud stand that Mark recommended and a Kowa 82SV with the long eye relief eyepiece. The Giraud because it works without problems, and the Kowa because of the long eye relief and it's more rugged. It doesn't take much of a fall to break the prism off the adjustment rod inside the Konus. As far as optics, the Konus is more than good enough for F-Class.
 
I also use the RayVin stand but have replaced the original head with Gary Eliseo's design. I find it much easier to adjust. The scope is a Nikon Fieldscope 25-75x82 ED. It is also more than adequate for F-Class use and has not given me any trouble. Like David, I run mine at 25X.
 

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Ernie,

I am not in the league the other guys are regarding shooting skills, but I do have nice equipment... lol. With that said, I too have the celstron 65 ED scope mentioned and love it. Several guys I shoot with here in the North have em too..

Stand, I have a First Strike stand and love it. http://www.first-strike-products.com/ the website sucks but call and you'll get great customer service. The whole stand package was significantly cheaper than similar 1" tube/shaft models...

Rod

AR Shooter said:
Ernie (SEB USA) said:
AR,
First, thank you for your response.
I am not concerned about seeing bullet holes as I will be shooting 600 at a minimum out to 1000.
Long eye relief is important.
What is the eye relief on your Celestron?
Not concerned about weight.

Is there a great advantage with higher quality glass when it comes to reading mirage at 600-700 yards when shooting at 1K?
20mm of eye relief on the model I use. Here are the spec's:
http://www.celestron.com/sports_outdoors/celestron-regal-m2-65ed-spotting-scope.html
I do not agree with the above 'theory' about better glass being worse for seeing mirage. Seeing is seeing (and is the term for how well one sees thru a scope of any type). The better you see the better you can see mirage. We had a very quiet day today at our mid-range/F-Class match. Was easy to watch the mirage through my scope as it moved gently right, then left, then boil, etc. The key to picking up mirage is to find a good background to view it against. The dark horizontal target frame, dirt in front of the target, the rail if shooting silhouettes, etc. And then believe what you see.
 
Ernie, trust me. Buy only a Kowa 82 with the long eye relief eye piece or if you can afford it the 883 with the long eye relief eye piece. I have the 82 and I can see mirage others miss. Of course I sat next to Kenny Adams with his 883 and it could see mirage mine could not.

I prefer the long eye relief because I wear glasses. I am very near sighted. The zoom is good if you want to see bullet holes at 200 when testing but beyond that it is not going to help much. So stay with the LER.

I too use the Giraud stand. I have been using a new head on it made by Stallings machine. It is called the Gold Standard. I really like it. You need something with about 5~6 inches of off set from the scope stand itself.

HOpe this helps or give me a call.

Eric
 
of the spotters I have used, the cream de la crème was a Leica Trinovid. Big, heavy and worth right and left kidney but it is so amazing.

for a more modest budget, my fave is a Kowa 660/661 w/ 25X LER. 20+mm eye relief is what you are after. Many are at 17mm which is WAAAYYYY too close for glasses. 19mm is absolutely bare min for me.

Pentax also makes a super LER eye piece in around 20 something power. Again, really nice but the 80mm spotters are bigger then I would like to carry.

However, this season, I decided to go completely different and am happy with the results.

World-FCNC086_zps6bba73c8.jpg


A pair of Nikon 12X binos on a modified arm attached to a RAY VIN stand. Get to see lots of the range and mirage info is decent. Depth of field lets me pick up mirage at various distances at once. I can also see the mirage at higher elevation if shooting into a hill..... kinda neat.

The Sightron 10-60 is plenty mag to see the target, scoring marker and mirage on the target.

I have to roll over a bit but it gives me a rest and the eye relief is plenty good.

YMMV

Jerry
 
Hello Ernie,

I have a Kowa TSN-661 w/ a 25x WA/LER eye piece, and a Kowa TSN-821M w/ a 27x LER. I purchased the 661 originally as it was smaller, lighter (thought I might use it for hunting or other stuff), and mainly, it was cheaper than the 821M which was at the time the best scope commonly found on the firing line. From time to time you'd see a Leica Televid show up, but at that time, it was pretty much either Kowa or else some of the older cheap scopes from Champion's Choice. I have one of those too... which does tend to 'color' my opinion regarding 'inexpensive scopes. A lot of people shot HP Rifle for a lot of years with those things... but compared to the 661, I jokingly (only somewhat) refer to it as being on the same level as a cardboard tube with wax paper over the ends. You can see the spotter, but seeing any but the heaviest mirage is a struggle.

When the Kowa 880 series came out, I was hot-to-trot to move up in the world and get a better scope, and one with fluorite lens coatings, as there is a subtle but definite improvement in the ability to see the finer aspects of the mirage with the fluorite (aka 'ED' or 'HD' coatings). That is, until I saw the price tag - at the time they were going for $2800+. Creedmoor sports had 821Ms on closeout for $750 with a cover - which was about what I'd paid for my 661. i about dislocated my arm getting the wallet out fast enough to get one of those ordered before they were gone ;)

Nightforce has a new spotting scope in the works that has *very* good resolution - coaches were able to see .30 cal bullet holes (maybe not all individual holes, but definitely the groups) in the black @ 500yds through mirage during some of our practices @ Raton. I didn't get to look through them a lot, but what I did see looked pretty good. I don't know whether they had any fixed eye pieces planned or not; the model I saw was a variable eyepiece unit. Price is going to be steep... probably in the $3k ballpark.

An awful lot of people have been using the Konus and similar scopes in recent years... Nikon, Pentax, Leica, etc. all make good glass. The big thing with the Kowas (besides good glass) for me has always been the availability of wide angle (WA) and LER (long eye-relief) lenses. I wear glasses *all* the time, and not having to butt my face against the eyepiece to get a full field of view with the 30-31mm eye relief cannot be over valued, in my opinion. Being able to get a full view of your target from a couple inches away is pretty nice as well. The WA part is nice also as it allows you to see several targets to either side, which can sometimes save you some grief if you see that your 'neighbor' two targets over launched a shot wide and right - maybe there is something going on out there that you need to look at more closely! ;)

If you can find a used 661 or 821M (or even a TSN-1, predecessor to the 821), that would be my recommended 'budget' option - best combination of good features, good glass, and good value. Sometimes if you look around, you might find someone who upgraded to a new 883 and wants to sell their old gear at a reasonable price. Sometimes if you put out a 'Want To Buy' ad in the classifieds you may kick one loose where someone was thinking about getting a new scope, but wanted to sell their old one first. Either way works out in your favor ;)

Monte
 
I have tried a number of high end spotting scopes... great optics; sharpness, clarity, etc. But, none of them (Zeiss, Swarovski, Leica) make a long eye relief eye piece, and nothing is more important for highpower. Being able to quickly get onto my scope to see mirage, without shifting my position much is paramount. That leaves only the Kowas with the 27 LER as good options. My 2 cents.
 

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