Best LR Bullet/Cartridge for Coyotes
- Thread starter sscoyote
- Start date
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
Phil, my reamers with the 50, 55, and 60g bullets are zero freebore, 1 1/2* leade angle.
Longest possible yardage, that is a tall order to even consider. If you had time for range finder, wind meter, run that through your calculator, then typical cartridges like the 7 mag with the 162g A max at 3100 out of a 26" factory have proven very accurate for me. Now, whether or not these heavy skin bullets will open up on a coyote is another issue if you don't hit bone.
My custom 7 STW will accurately shoot the 140g Noslers at 3600 with amazing accuracy.
It takes experience in the field to actually know how a bullet will perform on a small bodied animal like a coyote, and I don't have that experience since my longest shot has been around 500 yards. We hunted Mexico for years and your house would not hold the coyotes we shot.
I have a lot of faith in my pard that lives in Colorado that built that 22/6Rem AI. He has spend as much money as I have in developing coyote rifles. His experience is more in line with what the OP wanted information on, with the long range coyote rifle. My pard really talks up the 80g A max @ 3600 fps with the 22/6 Rem AI, and again this guy is not a braggart or a fool when it comes to building rifles. Colorado gets some of the worst conditions for sniping coyotes, long shots with wind. While the barrel life of a 22/6Rem AI is short(600-800), the benefits are substantial according to my pard...like nothing that he has ever worked with. So, if you were to choose this cartridge, then two barrels installed at the same time with the same headspace would be good thinking.
As I stated, the vast majority of shots that we have taken coyote hunting over the years have been in the 80-125 yard range, often hunting in open farm country, and open dessert have presented quite a few shots between 200-400 yards. If you don't have a flat shooting rifle at ranges beyond 300 you just miss...flat out.
Most regular guys are usually limited by the amount that they can spend on a rifle, for this reason I mentioned the Remington 700 in a 7 mag with a 26" barrel. I have had many in this configuration when properly bedded, barrel free floated, good trigger that would shoot 2 1/2" at 550 yards with just ho hum 140g nosler ballistic tips. The addition of a muzzle break with the 7 mag helps accuracy tremendously.
I was reading a post from a guy on this forum about a new cartridge called the 7mm Valkarie which he claims is shooting the 180g Bergers at 3350, now that is a cartridge to be investigated for long range hunting. If Berger ever gets out the new 195g bullets, that will put a new face on the 7mm cartridge line up.
There was guy by the name of Harold Broughton, famed benchrest shooter, barrel maker, and County trapper in Texas. Harold said that he had killed over 5000 coyotes, and I believed him. His wife hunted also. They both loved the 220 swifts with IMR 4064 and the 52g Sierra, but had a problem with the coyotes that would hang up around 500 yards when being called. So, Harold told me he built a 257 Roberts AI and shot the 100g Nosler Ballistic tips for those smart SOB's that were call wise.
My gut tells me that a bullet with a BC of .500 or better at 3500 fps or above would do well on coyotes way out there. A pea shooter with the bullet drop of a 45/70 is just not going to cut it. You have to remember that you are shooting at something that breathes, so the bullet has to open up. A 6 AI with the 87g V max at 3650 would be a minimum for me to consider, which would put the 95g Bergers in the 3450-3500 fps on a long barrel.
What is weird about this kind of conversation is that MOST will not even think about an actual hunting situation where you are calling in animals or over looking them when they are out in a field at the longer distances. More often than not, you don't have time to get the range finder, check your drop chart, check your wind meter...that is a lot of Hollywood type of thinking. In real life, you look over and there the he is. You give the animal your best range estimation, give the eleveation dial a whirl(if you have time), and fire. Some would argue that you should not take the shot, but that coyote will probably kill 20 or more fawns in a year's time, perhaps calves, and a family's precious pet.
I don't go the 30 caliber route because I can't take the recoil. I hunted with a guy that shot a 30 Gibbs once outside of San Diego, longer range shots on power lines right of ways. That rifle seemed like it would knock the fillings out of your head, and it did screw my hat on sideways after the shot.
Longest possible yardage, that is a tall order to even consider. If you had time for range finder, wind meter, run that through your calculator, then typical cartridges like the 7 mag with the 162g A max at 3100 out of a 26" factory have proven very accurate for me. Now, whether or not these heavy skin bullets will open up on a coyote is another issue if you don't hit bone.
My custom 7 STW will accurately shoot the 140g Noslers at 3600 with amazing accuracy.
It takes experience in the field to actually know how a bullet will perform on a small bodied animal like a coyote, and I don't have that experience since my longest shot has been around 500 yards. We hunted Mexico for years and your house would not hold the coyotes we shot.
I have a lot of faith in my pard that lives in Colorado that built that 22/6Rem AI. He has spend as much money as I have in developing coyote rifles. His experience is more in line with what the OP wanted information on, with the long range coyote rifle. My pard really talks up the 80g A max @ 3600 fps with the 22/6 Rem AI, and again this guy is not a braggart or a fool when it comes to building rifles. Colorado gets some of the worst conditions for sniping coyotes, long shots with wind. While the barrel life of a 22/6Rem AI is short(600-800), the benefits are substantial according to my pard...like nothing that he has ever worked with. So, if you were to choose this cartridge, then two barrels installed at the same time with the same headspace would be good thinking.
As I stated, the vast majority of shots that we have taken coyote hunting over the years have been in the 80-125 yard range, often hunting in open farm country, and open dessert have presented quite a few shots between 200-400 yards. If you don't have a flat shooting rifle at ranges beyond 300 you just miss...flat out.
Most regular guys are usually limited by the amount that they can spend on a rifle, for this reason I mentioned the Remington 700 in a 7 mag with a 26" barrel. I have had many in this configuration when properly bedded, barrel free floated, good trigger that would shoot 2 1/2" at 550 yards with just ho hum 140g nosler ballistic tips. The addition of a muzzle break with the 7 mag helps accuracy tremendously.
I was reading a post from a guy on this forum about a new cartridge called the 7mm Valkarie which he claims is shooting the 180g Bergers at 3350, now that is a cartridge to be investigated for long range hunting. If Berger ever gets out the new 195g bullets, that will put a new face on the 7mm cartridge line up.
There was guy by the name of Harold Broughton, famed benchrest shooter, barrel maker, and County trapper in Texas. Harold said that he had killed over 5000 coyotes, and I believed him. His wife hunted also. They both loved the 220 swifts with IMR 4064 and the 52g Sierra, but had a problem with the coyotes that would hang up around 500 yards when being called. So, Harold told me he built a 257 Roberts AI and shot the 100g Nosler Ballistic tips for those smart SOB's that were call wise.
My gut tells me that a bullet with a BC of .500 or better at 3500 fps or above would do well on coyotes way out there. A pea shooter with the bullet drop of a 45/70 is just not going to cut it. You have to remember that you are shooting at something that breathes, so the bullet has to open up. A 6 AI with the 87g V max at 3650 would be a minimum for me to consider, which would put the 95g Bergers in the 3450-3500 fps on a long barrel.
What is weird about this kind of conversation is that MOST will not even think about an actual hunting situation where you are calling in animals or over looking them when they are out in a field at the longer distances. More often than not, you don't have time to get the range finder, check your drop chart, check your wind meter...that is a lot of Hollywood type of thinking. In real life, you look over and there the he is. You give the animal your best range estimation, give the eleveation dial a whirl(if you have time), and fire. Some would argue that you should not take the shot, but that coyote will probably kill 20 or more fawns in a year's time, perhaps calves, and a family's precious pet.
I don't go the 30 caliber route because I can't take the recoil. I hunted with a guy that shot a 30 Gibbs once outside of San Diego, longer range shots on power lines right of ways. That rifle seemed like it would knock the fillings out of your head, and it did screw my hat on sideways after the shot.
I don't know about you but the first thing I do when I sit down for a calling site is Range the areas. I have enough creeks and rolling hills that there are only a few paths that a Coyote would want to take to check out his potential free meal. I sit for awhile before I do anything to ensure all is calm in the area, during this time I glass and range ingress and egress that ole Yotes like to use.
Its the yotes that we stumble upon that usually get away as I don't have time to do the above on the longer ranges. Ussually I just plot the sighting on my map and come back latter.
RT
Its the yotes that we stumble upon that usually get away as I don't have time to do the above on the longer ranges. Ussually I just plot the sighting on my map and come back latter.
RT
xswanted
Gold $$ Contributor
The 20-250 works very well shooting the 55 Berger.
Shoots crazy flat to 350 yards then is flatter than most bigger guns past that for aways.
I shot a lot of dogs with mine last year in the 300-600 yard range and it kills very well. Shot two beyond that that ran quite a ways but were recovered.
Past 300 yards there usually isn't much sewing either.
Great coyote rifle....can be a little messy if you shoot one at 50-100 yards, shot placement is crucial at that range to avoid a big hole.
Shoots crazy flat to 350 yards then is flatter than most bigger guns past that for aways.
I shot a lot of dogs with mine last year in the 300-600 yard range and it kills very well. Shot two beyond that that ran quite a ways but were recovered.
Past 300 yards there usually isn't much sewing either.
Great coyote rifle....can be a little messy if you shoot one at 50-100 yards, shot placement is crucial at that range to avoid a big hole.
Rtheurer hit the head of the nail hard and direct. It is fast and easy to range a few spots to know for sure what the distances are. Same with wind take a reading so you know basically what you are going to have to deal with.
There is a mindset one should have when in the field. Constantly think about range, wind and where they would come from. What terrain are you dealing with?
All bullets drop using a super fast whatever only makes it easier for the non thinkers or the ones who do not spend any time shooting in the field. There is nothing wrong with that just be forewarned that if you do not know how to employ your rifle system at distance you are probably going to teach them to stay back farther. In my book if you wound them instead of a kill well that is OK also. A protip from me. If you kill too many coyotes the birds of prey come in to kill your game birds and mice.
There is a mindset one should have when in the field. Constantly think about range, wind and where they would come from. What terrain are you dealing with?
All bullets drop using a super fast whatever only makes it easier for the non thinkers or the ones who do not spend any time shooting in the field. There is nothing wrong with that just be forewarned that if you do not know how to employ your rifle system at distance you are probably going to teach them to stay back farther. In my book if you wound them instead of a kill well that is OK also. A protip from me. If you kill too many coyotes the birds of prey come in to kill your game birds and mice.
ackleyman II said:
Glad it's not just me.
My dad had a 300 Win Mag. I couldn't fire it without flinching. I'm 5'10" and a little over 200lbs and in reasonably good shape. But that thing just pounded me. In a way, I'm sort of glad you can't use center fire to hunt deer in Ohio. (but they've just allowed straight walled pistol cartridges.)
Thought I'd let the folks here know that I do have some experience in this area. My application is specialty pistol field shooting, and I have used various smaller and larger calibers with VLD-style bullets for longer ranges, but as always I'm looking for a better mouse trap. Hunted for some time with a guy who used an AR-10 243/87 V-Max combination and had more 1st-shot connections to 800 yds. than any I've ever seen. We had a pretty good system with my Leica Geovids, and that AR. I was spotter by default, and my buddy would setup as I called out range. Was a great team system really. Have thought of trying a 20 of some sort and actually have a 20BR XP, though the barrel never shot well in it--may revisit that caliber this year before next for season...?
Teerrific comments guys--most appreciative!
Teerrific comments guys--most appreciative!
Interesting article. Lots of food for thought. We are coyote hunters/sell the hide kind of guys. Sewing holes is not where its at for good prices. So in this quest for a kill them/don't leave holes we have really tried to get a cartridge/bullet that works. When calling your probably going to kill most inside off 200 yds so big guns such as 6mmAI are going to wreck havic but at plus 400 will be good to go. If one didn't want to sell the hides this question would be easy. We have found that calling coyotes a cartridge capable of killing out to 500 and yet not blowing holes in close has come down to a 204 shooting 32gr sierra BK at 4000 for early thin skin and the 20 BR shooting sierra 39s at 3800 for the later heavy furred and hanging up out there, has finally given us the kill no sewing we are after. The 204 is good to about 375 but on early coyotes that is usually more than enough. For those drive buy see them out in the field we just pull out the heavy,what ever that might be at the time.
STS
Silver $$ Contributor
There's been some excellent suggestions and some logical rifle blueprints presented here. I kind of work off the same ideas but have a slightly different strategy for hitting the highest possible percentage of long shots that I need to take. I don't strive for the absolute highest possible velocity cartridge/bullet combo and rely on flat trajectory only to get the job done. The way I see it is even with the very high velocity rounds you still have to hold over the coyote at longer distances. The only difference is how much hold over is needed. My focus is on extreme accuracy and knowing exact yardage in combination with a custom 4 dot reticle that EXACTLY matches the trajectory of the ammo I shoot.
I have made custom bullets for many years and consequently have developed loads that I've shot forever with those bullets. I have 2 scopes with custom dot systems that match that ammo and a pair of Leica Geovid binos that I can range very accurately to 1000 yards (well past my effective range). It has proven to be a very effective system out to about 550 yards or so. It takes time to develop a system that works for you, I wish you good luck in finding your system.
I have made custom bullets for many years and consequently have developed loads that I've shot forever with those bullets. I have 2 scopes with custom dot systems that match that ammo and a pair of Leica Geovid binos that I can range very accurately to 1000 yards (well past my effective range). It has proven to be a very effective system out to about 550 yards or so. It takes time to develop a system that works for you, I wish you good luck in finding your system.
Thks. guys-I do believe the 20 cal. will require revisiting before next fur season. I was able to get the 50 Berger to 3400 even out of an 18" barrel. This 17 Fireball drives the 25 Horn V-Max @ 3450ish, and has been wonderful for coyotes to 350 yds. at the very longest of ranges.
...and the 20 BR that won't shoot on the bottom--
...and the 20 BR that won't shoot on the bottom--
Hey Steve!
Just joined up over here (knockemdowm elsewhere)
I have a .22-243Win that is a real nice shooting rifle. Kills the heck outta coyotes with a 75Amax in the mid 3400fps range. That is a mild load with RL-25, not pushing hard at all...
Sought to improve upon that one, and schemed up to build a .22-243AI, with a friend. We both used Brux 1:8tw barrels, and speced our chamber with a long throat and semi-tight "no turn" neck with Lapua brass.
We've found happiness with 75Amaxs @ ~3600fps and 80Amaxs @~3500fps range. H1000 and Retumbo for powder, Lapua cases. These are relatively mild loads, primer pockets remain tight after several times fired. Only bushing nk. sizing needed, and no case trimming!
Aside from the ease of loading & maintenance, this .22-243AI is proving to be all we'd hoped for! The ballistic performance of a high b.c. .224" bullet at those speeds is nothing short of phenomenal. MV is fast enough to satisfy MBPR shooting inside 350yds, and the high b.c. of those Amaxs pays dividends to as far as one would reasonably shoot at a coyote. The terminal performance is IMPRESSIVE, without being overly damaging...
I saw mentioned the .22/6mmAI above, that's gotta be a real demon! Pushed hard enough, the 22/6mmAI is likely entering the realm of negatively affecting bullet integrity. IE, "poofs" in mid-air, or "splashes" on critters. In that regard, huge overbores like .22/6mmAI & .22/284 etc. become performance constrained by bullet integrity, rather than case capacity. Every bullet has it's breaking point and too many RPMs on a given bullet results in all that wonderful performance being lost due to a compromised jacket. Combine that with the need for having a long action to feed heavy .224" bullets seated long, and the above two lose their appeal (to me)...
Conversely, short action wildcats like the .22-50AI, .22x47L, etc. need to be pushed very hard to reach the upper end of a heavy .224" bullet's velocity threshold. That leads to premature toasting of brass and torching of throats when da pedals to da' metal. The aforementioned are wonderfully efficient cases, especially for 50-60gr bullets! However, their limitation for pushing .224" heavies fast enough to be truly magical, is powder capacity. Still a 75Amax @ 32-3350 from either, is no joke! But one @ 3650 is friggin' incredible...
That is a main reason we chose to stay with the .22-243AI. Its performance window seems to be in the upper end of a .224" bullet's "sweet spot", for lack of a better term, without crossing over the line of diminishing returns from too much speed. It has enough case capacity to allow the use of slow burn powders, which keeps pressure in check. That translates to being easier on throats and more forgiving on brass, while still netting enough speed to push a .224" bullet like the 75 Amax to it's "RPM limit". In that regard, a proper spec'ed .22-243AI a can almost mirror the performance of a .224TTH, or even a .22/6mmAI...
In summation, the reason we chose to go with a .22-243AI are:
1. Can load high b.c. bullets long enough to maximize case capacity.
2. Can fit/feed from an AICS magazine at that c.o.a.l.
3. Runs from a short action, which allows for running the bolt while staying on the scope.
4. Case forming from excellent Lapua 243Win. brass
5. Minimal sizing and no trimming leads to excellent case life for an overbore wildcat
6. Capcious enough to use slow burn powders to keep pressure in check & still yield max. FPS.
7. Fireform loads in the 3250fps range are already devastating on varmints
8. Recoil is negligible, can spot impacts thru the scope
9. Incredible ballistic performance, flat shooting & wind bucking ability
10. Absolutely devastating on coyotes
The bonus that we've seen is that, on close in (<200yd shots), a 75Amax will blow thru on a broadside rib shot, leaving a manageable exit hole. Frontal shots don't tear one up as much as you'd think. Raking/heavy bone shots, all bets are off on fur damage, but that is more a factor of splintered bones. Either way, you're gonna have one heck of a meat report to listen to!
Since building these two originals .22-243AIs, I believe our smith has built at least another 8-10 for coyote hunters. To a one, I've heard nothing but jaw dropping awe & happiness regarding accuracy, ballistic and terminal performance. I haven't shot many coyotes with mine, but my results are identical with the bunch. Some of those guys are serious coyote killers and collectively have amassed quite a database of dead bodies to draw results from. Suffice to say, a fast twist .22-243AI is all that, and a bag o' chips...
Good shootin'!
Just joined up over here (knockemdowm elsewhere)
I have a .22-243Win that is a real nice shooting rifle. Kills the heck outta coyotes with a 75Amax in the mid 3400fps range. That is a mild load with RL-25, not pushing hard at all...
Sought to improve upon that one, and schemed up to build a .22-243AI, with a friend. We both used Brux 1:8tw barrels, and speced our chamber with a long throat and semi-tight "no turn" neck with Lapua brass.
We've found happiness with 75Amaxs @ ~3600fps and 80Amaxs @~3500fps range. H1000 and Retumbo for powder, Lapua cases. These are relatively mild loads, primer pockets remain tight after several times fired. Only bushing nk. sizing needed, and no case trimming!
Aside from the ease of loading & maintenance, this .22-243AI is proving to be all we'd hoped for! The ballistic performance of a high b.c. .224" bullet at those speeds is nothing short of phenomenal. MV is fast enough to satisfy MBPR shooting inside 350yds, and the high b.c. of those Amaxs pays dividends to as far as one would reasonably shoot at a coyote. The terminal performance is IMPRESSIVE, without being overly damaging...
I saw mentioned the .22/6mmAI above, that's gotta be a real demon! Pushed hard enough, the 22/6mmAI is likely entering the realm of negatively affecting bullet integrity. IE, "poofs" in mid-air, or "splashes" on critters. In that regard, huge overbores like .22/6mmAI & .22/284 etc. become performance constrained by bullet integrity, rather than case capacity. Every bullet has it's breaking point and too many RPMs on a given bullet results in all that wonderful performance being lost due to a compromised jacket. Combine that with the need for having a long action to feed heavy .224" bullets seated long, and the above two lose their appeal (to me)...
Conversely, short action wildcats like the .22-50AI, .22x47L, etc. need to be pushed very hard to reach the upper end of a heavy .224" bullet's velocity threshold. That leads to premature toasting of brass and torching of throats when da pedals to da' metal. The aforementioned are wonderfully efficient cases, especially for 50-60gr bullets! However, their limitation for pushing .224" heavies fast enough to be truly magical, is powder capacity. Still a 75Amax @ 32-3350 from either, is no joke! But one @ 3650 is friggin' incredible...
That is a main reason we chose to stay with the .22-243AI. Its performance window seems to be in the upper end of a .224" bullet's "sweet spot", for lack of a better term, without crossing over the line of diminishing returns from too much speed. It has enough case capacity to allow the use of slow burn powders, which keeps pressure in check. That translates to being easier on throats and more forgiving on brass, while still netting enough speed to push a .224" bullet like the 75 Amax to it's "RPM limit". In that regard, a proper spec'ed .22-243AI a can almost mirror the performance of a .224TTH, or even a .22/6mmAI...
In summation, the reason we chose to go with a .22-243AI are:
1. Can load high b.c. bullets long enough to maximize case capacity.
2. Can fit/feed from an AICS magazine at that c.o.a.l.
3. Runs from a short action, which allows for running the bolt while staying on the scope.
4. Case forming from excellent Lapua 243Win. brass
5. Minimal sizing and no trimming leads to excellent case life for an overbore wildcat
6. Capcious enough to use slow burn powders to keep pressure in check & still yield max. FPS.
7. Fireform loads in the 3250fps range are already devastating on varmints
8. Recoil is negligible, can spot impacts thru the scope
9. Incredible ballistic performance, flat shooting & wind bucking ability
10. Absolutely devastating on coyotes
The bonus that we've seen is that, on close in (<200yd shots), a 75Amax will blow thru on a broadside rib shot, leaving a manageable exit hole. Frontal shots don't tear one up as much as you'd think. Raking/heavy bone shots, all bets are off on fur damage, but that is more a factor of splintered bones. Either way, you're gonna have one heck of a meat report to listen to!
Since building these two originals .22-243AIs, I believe our smith has built at least another 8-10 for coyote hunters. To a one, I've heard nothing but jaw dropping awe & happiness regarding accuracy, ballistic and terminal performance. I haven't shot many coyotes with mine, but my results are identical with the bunch. Some of those guys are serious coyote killers and collectively have amassed quite a database of dead bodies to draw results from. Suffice to say, a fast twist .22-243AI is all that, and a bag o' chips...
Good shootin'!
Great stuff Fred! Man you sure got a handle on it sir.
The upper gun in the pic is a Savage Super Striker 22-250 with a McGowen 8T. It shoots the 80 A-Max great, just haven't taken any dogs with it yet. may have to revisit that pistol again, do some trigger work on it, and get rid of the thumbhole part of the stock. It's a heavy gun for an SP. Holds 2 in the magazine which works just fine for my apps.
Sure would like to see Hornady come out with a 55 gr. 20 cal. A-Max. Think that'd be quite the sensation amongst 20 cal users I think.
The upper gun in the pic is a Savage Super Striker 22-250 with a McGowen 8T. It shoots the 80 A-Max great, just haven't taken any dogs with it yet. may have to revisit that pistol again, do some trigger work on it, and get rid of the thumbhole part of the stock. It's a heavy gun for an SP. Holds 2 in the magazine which works just fine for my apps.
Sure would like to see Hornady come out with a 55 gr. 20 cal. A-Max. Think that'd be quite the sensation amongst 20 cal users I think.
Great thread and awesome replies guys! I started out shooting bolt guns and they are still my favorite. With coyotes I think I would want a semi-auto in AR-10. I would go with any HOT 6mm round. .243, 6/6.5-47 Lapua, 6 Creedmoore, 6mm Remington, 6XC or 6 super.
DR1586
Gold $$ Contributor
If I were building a gun specifically for your needs, I would look at a 6mm. Barrel erosion will be a factor as you increase the boiler room of the cartridge. A 6BR or Dasher would be a good choice. So would the 6mm Creedmoor or 6x47 Lapua. If you want lots of speed, a 6-284 will do it. The 6mm bullet offering is about as good as it gets, plenty of higher BC bullets that will do the trick. Of course the 243 is right there in the mix and is a proven cartridge that has pretty easy load development. So if I had to choose, I think It really depends on how much time you want to spend loading ammo/making brass. If you want simple, 243 is your answer. If you want to spend a little time and have something different, look at the dasher or creedmore/Lapua 6mms.
Thanks for all the comments. I think if I elect to chamber another XP-100 for a long-range rig it will be via the WSSM case. I believe it offers great case capacity in a short OAL case, that will allow A-Max length seating without altering the bolt stop nor notching the front of the loading port with 22, 24, or 6.5 cals. With a little case work it could be just the case design and capacity I need. Any comments on this choice?
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