Best cleaning method for top accuracy?

[garandman]

Two pages and not one mention of Marvel Mystery Oil. Hmmm.

Know a guy who mixes it with Kroil for better lube while cleaning. Kroil will tend to squeak as you wipe it away.

 

[Down South]

IMO the most important part is to know what is going on inside your barrel during/after cleaning. I tried the "no brush" let the chemicals do the work but after the battle I had with carbon build up in the throat area in my faster 6mms I went back to strong chemicals, brons brushes (not over using them) and a little Iosso every now and then and for now that seems to be working for me.

As for the barrel squeegees, i would just stick with a proper rod, guide and patches.

I found the exact same thing after experimenting with my last barrel of "let the chemical work method", I went back to my original method of brushing with bronze brushes and using Iosso when needed. I bore scope with a Hawkeye every time I clean which is after every match (70 to 80 rounds). I keep my barrels very clean, more so than most folks I talk to. I don't let layers of cabon build up as its a royal pain in the ass to get it out. I know my methods make the "don't brush" crowd cringe but it works for me. Their methods work for them apparently so it's different strokes for different folks.

 

[Forum Boss]

One thing, there is no way for me to use a foam with a warm barrel. I have a 3+ hour drive to my closest 1,000 yard range so the best I can do is a few patches or brush cleaning before I pack up and the barrel cools completely in transit.

I can do it when I go to a 100 yard range but that will only be for load development and zeroing before I stretch it out.

Simple.

Apply foam AT THE RANGE, when you're done shooting. Then, 15 minutes later, after all your other gear is packed in your vehicle, apply Foam a second time (after the bubbles from app 1 dissipage). Then Plug the chamber, and tape off the muzzle so no leakage

Drive home, patch out. Done.

I apply the foam with the gun in a cradle, right on the bench. Let the foam work as you drive.

 

[msinc]

If there was only one correct method and product to use during cleaning, everybody would be using it by now. You need to do a trial and error test of different methods and products to find out what makes you and your gun barrel happy.

Yes sir and sometimes I think that when it comes to barrel cleaning it just might be too simple...to the point that no one wants to concede the obvious. It really can be as easy as one chemical and one simple method.
What continues to amaze me is when people get on a forum and tell everyone how effective brand A is and how perfect, fast and easy it cleans their bore. I usually post asking them when they got their borescope and if they really like it or not and hear crickets......I have had a Hawkeye for over 15 years now and in direct relation to this thread I will say two things, I have yet to see any kind of foaming bore cleaner accomplish a GD thing and I have yet to see JB Bore Cleaner "smooth out" anything. Without a borescope you just do not know...I believe many folks have drank so much brand A Kool-Aide and repeated it for so long that they don't want to know.

 

[Dud]

About JB, I'll tell you why I say that.

I got my barrel and since it was for an LR308, it had been test fired, still the bore looked shiny and new.

After building it up a few years later, I cleaned it in anticipation of break in at the range. I used the KG copper solvent and powder solvent and after that, I looked in the bore and it seemed rough on the edges of the lands. Pushing patches was pretty rough too.

At that point I used the JB according to the directions and thoroughly cleaned it out, followed by more cleaning with the KG products.

Afterward the bore was visibly brighter, the edges of the lands seemed more crisp and smooth and patches were a lot easier to push through.

I used JB one or two more times in the break in process and after that it is fouling less and cleans up easier. Looking in the bore, the rifling seems nice and smooth but I can't see the throat really.

From that I believe it smoothed out the bore. The break in and firing since have smoothed it more probably but I still think the JB did something.

On my next barrel, a friend of mine is going to help me pour a lead lap to see if the barrel has any tight spots and diamond lap it if it does or it's not as smooth as we would like it to be.

That's a similar process. It's hard to imagine that works but JB does nothing.

I will go back to inspect that barrel once I get a bore scope but my experience up to now was that the JB did smooth the bore, I can feel it when I'm pushing a patch.

 

[msinc]

.......It's hard to imagine that works but JB does nothing........

That is NOT what I wrote. JB is one of the very few bore care products that I have used which will quickly do exactly what it is supposed to. And that is remove copper fouling. The "active" ingredient in JB Bore Cleaner is chalk. It is non-embedding and non abrasive so it will not alter steel. The only thing JB will smooth out is copper and it will smooth it right on out of the barrel.
JB makes another product, JB Bore Bright and the active ingredient is very fine corundum powder. It is abrasive, but it's so fine that it polishes the surface only. It will leave your bore like a mirror if you use it too much.
One thing for sure, you do not want your bore to have a high polish, about a 220-320 finish is plenty smooth. Polish it up to a high bright mirror shine and you wont believe the copper fouling.
I am not saying what you experienced didn't happen. I just believe it was more the shooting that smoothed things out than the use of JB {if it was JB Cleaner and not the JB Bright}. I definitely suggest you research "polishing" your bore before you do too much of it.

 

[Texas10]

I'm not looking to start a fight.

I'm just curious about the foaming cleaners but there are several I've seen. I haven't looked in to it close enough to tell which are for copper and which are for powder fouling. I don't know for sure if any of them work.

I agree with the bore scope idea and the break in procedure mentioned. The barrel I was talking about took around 13-14 shots with 7-8 cleanings and the 2 or 3 JB bore paste treatments. It is a Criterion button rifled barrel and it looked rough enough after the first cleaning that I used the JB before I took the first shot.

With the KG products, it's kind of a system and easy to tell what bottle does what. I found the copper solvent and powder solvent to work well although I wasn't looking at it with a bore scope, just patches that came out clean, pushed out easy and left a shiny bore behind with no copper as far as I could tell.

So is there anything out there that will make me want to get rid of my brushes?

Is that bore squeegee worth trying to use just to pull out the last of my cleaning chemicals before I put it away?

Will VCIs be enough to protect a fairly dry bore from rust?

I know different people do things different ways but I don't have time for trial and error. It's a lot easier to gather many opinions, research the more popular ones and then pick a way to go.

I've been using Gunslick foaming bore cleaner for a few years, and I find that it does a good job of getting out the copper. Out of curiosity I put three copper jacketed bullets in bowls with different bore cleaners advertised as copper removing. Hoppes #9, Gunslick foaming bore cleaner, one other I can't remember off the top of my head and the Gunslick ate away at the copper jacket the best.

But after giving the barrel a good cleaning, verified by bore camera, I ran some Ed's Red down the bore and could not believe how much carbon fouling it removed. Got the barrel down to steel colored. So now it's Gunslick for the copper, and Ed's for the carbon fouling.

 

[ebb]

how long is a rope?

 

[Forum Boss]

Quote: "have yet to see any kind of foaming bore cleaner accomplish a GD thing..."

Then frankly, you have not used Wipe-out, or have not used it correctly over an extended period. It is not a panacea. But it is effective, esp. when combined with wet patches. Confirmed with borescoping and Accuracy testing. But everyone may have different preferred methods. Go with what works, which requires the least effort, which does not harm accuracy, and yields good barrel life. There will be different preferred methods for hand lapped custom barrels vs factory barrels.

 

[Forum Boss]

As noted WipeOut is the only foaming cleaner we recommend.

 

[Down South]

As noted WipeOut is the only foaming cleaner we recommend.

I haven't tried the Wipeout Foam but do use the Wipe Out Patch Out and Accelerator. I let it soak over night and it cleans the bore pretty good but doesn't get all the hard carbon out in the throat area. That's why I brush and use Iosso. So the foam gets all of the carbon out of the throat area of your barrels?

 

[Forum Boss]

I haven't tried the Wipeout Foam but do use the Wipe Out Patch Out and Accelerator. I let it soak over night and it cleans the bore pretty good but doesn't get all the hard carbon out in the throat area. That's why I brush and use Iosso. So the foam gets all of the carbon out of the throat area of your barrels?

YES. I have three custom barrels, all over 700 rounds. All brushed minimally or virtually never. No carbon issue. But I apply Wipeout Foam twice AFTER 4-5 soaking wet patches. IMPORTANT: I apply the foam Immediately after shooting -- BEFORE the carbon hardens. After wet patches get most of the gray/black gunk out, I foam the bore. I wait 15-20 minutes for the bubbles to dissipate, then foam a SECOND Time. I plug chamber and puzzle, drive home, and patch out the barrel 4-5 hours later. Barrels are accurate as new and length-to-lands has moved only .003-.004 in 700+ rounds.

With some factory barrels I will brush because fouling adheres worse because of tooling marks in the bore.

 

[rwj]

IMPORTANT: I apply the foam Immediately after shooting -- BEFORE the carbon hardens.

I believe that this is the key element regardless of cleaner selection!

 

[Paddyd]

I'm not anything close to being an "expert" on the subject, but over the years, I've learned that the majority of all copper in the bore lies under the carbon. I'm of the belief that most of the copper is deposited in a sqeaky clean bore and as the carbon and graphite from the propellant tends to coat the bore over the previously laid copper, you get little more copper until you scrub it clean again exposing that dry bore. This is not necessarily true in a rough factory barrel. They will copper continuously.
So, to easily remove the copper, you should first attack the carbon, Get the carbon out of the way and the foam will easily melt away the copper. Carbon is stubborn and I've found nothing that will effectively cut it without the use of a bronze brush.
It is also my belief that carbon just forward of the chamber in the lead is more important to keep cleaned out than a little copper in the bore itself.' If you already have a tight lead, carbon buildup in it can restrict the ability of the case neck to open easily or enough to release the bullet consistently causing pressure issues and velocity fluctuations. This isn't very prevalent in you average rifle, but in a tight match chamber can easily affect group sizes. I clean my chamber after every range session, but leave the bore itself alone as far as serious cleaning goes for about 100 or so rounds through it. After that or if I see my groups beginning to open up I'll then clean the entire barrel.

 

[D Coots]

You can not compare cleaning methods of short range, say 10-15 shots to other disciplines, maybe 75-100 or more shots. It's like comparing apples to watermelons. Break it down to number of rounds fired and which discipline you are shooting and you will come to some kind of confusion.

 

[Dud]

I will be shooting slowly at 1,000 yards+, usually not in a competition situation.

I will do some load development and testing at 100 yards but similarly slow.

I usually clean between 50-100 rounds fired. I haven't waited for the accuracy to fall off yet but that's probably because I'm not a good enough shooter to notice a difference on a really accurate rifle.

As far as cleaning before carbon has a chance to harden, that sounds like some interesting chemistry. I was thinking of carbon like soot that's baked on at high temperature, not like goo that hardens as it cools. I'm going to have to research that and read powder MSDS'.

 

[rwj]

As far as cleaning before carbon has a chance to harden, that sounds like some interesting chemistry. I was thinking of carbon like soot that's baked on at high temperature, not like goo that hardens as it cools. I'm going to have to research that and read powder MSDS'.

It may be as simple as heat and time always being factors in chemical reactions...

 

[Paddyd]

I will be shooting slowly at 1,000 yards+, usually not in a competition situation.

I will do some load development and testing at 100 yards but similarly slow.

I usually clean between 50-100 rounds fired. I haven't waited for the accuracy to fall off yet but that's probably because I'm not a good enough shooter to notice a difference on a really accurate rifle.

As far as cleaning before carbon has a chance to harden, that sounds like some interesting chemistry. I was thinking of carbon like soot that's baked on at high temperature, not like goo that hardens as it cools. I'm going to have to research that and read powder MSDS'.

Take an high mileage engine apart and inspect the combustion chamber. That carbon tends to get so hard it is impossible to remove, even with the harshest chemicals without also using a wire brush on a die grinder. Put ordinary carbon under extreme heat and pressure and what do you end up with? Diamond, the hardest known material on the planet. There's a hell of a lot of both heat and pressure in front of a rifle's chamber when fired. Not implying you'll make any diamonds, but do it often and long enough and that carbon might be nearly impossible to get out without doing damage. That's why I clean the chamber after each range session. Keep it under control and it is a non issue.

 

[Dud]

I do know a little about carbon deposits on the intake valves of direct injection engines.

It happens when oil vapor gets past the PCV and in to the intake, with no gasoline (solvent) to keep it from depositing on the hot valves. It doesn't seem to form deposits nearly as much on cooler parts like the intake ports.

Maybe the chemistry is different?

 

[BoydAllen]

IMO there are several cleaning routines that work. Which one you choose may depend on several factors one being how much time you have. For instance, in the short range benchrest group game, shooters clean at matches, which makes using a foam cleaner impractical. Another issue is whether one is shortening barrel life by one or more details in a cleaning regimen. Bowing rods, inadequate rod guides, running a jag or brush out inches beyond the muzzle are examples. If I do not have to clean until the end of a session, Wipe Out is always a good option, but I have found that it may be necessary to do a little brushing afterward, depending on the number of shots and the powder that was loaded. There is a lot of difference in powders with respect to how much effort it takes to clean a barrel. If two powders can do the same job, with equal performance, generally I will choose the one that takes less effort to clean. There is also the matter of barrel quality. Cleaning typical factory barrels is a much different proposition than working with top grade lapped barrels. Generally one learns this stuff by trying different products and methods, and with the advent of commonly available, and recently, affordable bore scopes, we can actually know the condition of the insides of our barrels, instead of just guessing.