Best cleaning method for top accuracy?

[Forum Boss]

Borescope is good. The $50 90-deg endoscope is amazing for the money and we'll have a review up in the next few days.

SEE: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TTQF24F/?tag=accuratescom-20

That said -- LET the target do the talking. If your gun is shooting great, maybe you do NOT need to scrub the heck out of the bore...

Some cleaners will create a dark patch just from the interaction with metal and air. Like silver polish does. You can test this on the OUTSIDE of your barrel.

Recently, using a Hawkeye, I scoped a barrel which had received minimal cleaning. I saw some black streaks in the grooves. I started to get worried (was it time to break out the JB?!). Then my buddy, and owner of the range where I shoot, said "let's just see how it shoots". He went out and put 4 shots into 0.104". Honest. We left that barrel "as is" and continue to use wet patches and Wipe-Out for 95% of the cleaning.


About bore-scope inspection -- Yes we advocate owning an borescope. But I'm convinced that borescopes cause unnecessary panic and much unnecessary cleaning. If you are trying to take a barrel down to a perfect finish, with no tiny imperfections, you are probably removing a lot of metal molecules. THAT can have an effect on accuracy and it may not be good.

Be CONSERVATIVE. If you have a great-shooting barrel, ask yourself "how can I maintain the condition in which it is shooting well".

One last thing: I am VERY careful with the crown when cleaning. I have witnessed bad cleaning methods (sawing gunky bronze brushes back and forth across the crown 40-50 times) that created tiny "shark's teeth" on the edge when done repeatedly. We had one guy in our club who used to do this. He always complained that his good premium 6mm barrels stopped shooting after 600-700 rounds. After we finally convinced him to not saw his brush back and forth like that, guess what, his barrels started going 1500+. I'm sure there was other stupid stuff he was doing at home.

Derek Rodgers is one of the best shooters in the nation. The only guy who has won the F-Open AND F-TR National championship. Yes he owns brushes, yes he has a borescope. But I can tell you he is VERY conservative when cleaning his best-shooting barrels.

About Foam. The formulations are NOT the same. WipeOut is the ONLY foam we recommend. It has elements that its creator says can, after repeated applications, reduce the tendency to foul. Some other brands of foam can promote corrosion. Caveat Emptor.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

The crown much like another part of my anatomy is exit only, nothing comes back into it

 

[DirtySteve]

OK, Now that several folks have actually replied, you can see my sit back and watch attitude. However I will tell you what I do while cleaning. I am by no means a great shooter so keep that in mind. I shoot F-class and demand 1/2 moa accuracy which is not even a starting point for the BR guys.

I run 4-5 patches with copper solvent through the barrel and let it sit for a couple minutes(Any where from 1-5 as I get bored easily). I run a bronze brush about 10 passes. and repeat. Then I run 4-5 patches with some thing for the powder fouling. Brush it a few strokes. I then run a few patches of oil(Kroil) through the barrel. Then a dry patch. Done...... I drag the brush back into the barrel from the muzzle end (some folks shudder at the mere thought of this).

Mr Shilen once said why clean all the copper out of the barrel just to then have to shoot a few round just to get the barrel shooting good again.

 

[Dud]

Well it sounds like I should put a 45° bore scope on my shopping list and research Wipe Out and Boretech products.

Maybe I'll try a foam until I see something I don't like with the bore scope, like a carbon ring forming?

Are there any suggestions for a bore guide or plug to keep the foam in place?

I don't want to give up on foam because I make a mess.

One more thing, I like the KG copper solvent because it isn't stinky. If I have to soak a bore for 12 hours or more, I would rather not use a chemical that stinks. Let me know if there are any I should avoid for that reason.

Oh, thanks for the help so far.

Now where can I find some Turkey poop?

 

[Mark W]

Not everyone wants to hear it, but I have confirmed with a borescope that KG-12 our performs some of the stinky copper solvents.

It doesn’t turn blue, so it’s hard to tell when it’s clean if you don’t have a borescope.

 

[Forum Boss]

Quote: "I run 4-5 patches with copper solvent through the barrel and let it sit for a couple minutes(Any where from 1-5 as I get bored easily). I run a bronze brush about 10 passes. and repeat. Then I run 4-5 patches with some thing for the powder fouling. Brush it a few strokes. I then run a few patches of oil(Kroil) through the barrel. Then a dry patch. Done...... I drag the brush back into the barrel from the muzzle end (some folks shudder at the mere thought of this)."

Honestly, IMHO that is way more work than one really needs to do for a premium custom barrel, unless you are cleaning every 200 rounds or so with a dirty powder. I believe you are wasting cleaning materials, and wasting much of your own valuable time. There are many top F-Class guys who are doing a LOT less brushing than that after 150 rounds.

As for Kroil... There are better anti-corrosion chemicals that don't seem to require as many fouling rounds.

With my methods (mostly wet patches and Wipe-out, rarely brush), I can shoot 3 rounds and go to record targets.

 

[JMayo]

Good ole #9 for me, used liberally.
A not worn out brush. Buy em by the dozen. The Sinclair's seem to wear fast. Gonna try pro shot's.

Alternate patches & brushing till satisfied !

 

[Fast14riot]

I hang a plastic bag on the muzzle of my barrel when I spray the foam in to catch what comes shooting out, I also hold the can/tube in the chamber for a minute after spraying to allow pressure to drop because it will spit back out into your chamber and action otherwise. I use Outers foaming copper solvent, works well for me. I also like Gunslick cleaner. The boss (SWMBO) also likes them because they don't smell like I'm cooking meth in a litter box down in the basement.

 

[PhilC]

This is a much better option for a little more money.....

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TTQF24F/?tag=accuratescom-20

There’s a couple of threads discussing these borescopes. It actually has the 45 degree mirror so that you can see the everything much better than with a standard endoscope.

Received mine last week, incredible quality for the price.

 

[Forum Boss]

Boss’
What method do you employ for a carbon ring?
J

I don't get a carbon ring. There may be four or five reasons for this.

1. I use mostly Varget and H4350 at close to max pressures. Get a pretty clean burn, and those ADI powders seem to have an element that goes on the bore surface that's not simply carbon.
3. I am basically drenching the bore in fluid (two applications of Wipe-Out) while barrel is still warm. The Wipe-Out inventor says there is an element which, over time, helps resist fouling.
3. For most barrels I seat into the lands. Perhaps this helps push out carbon, but that's just speculation. I understand in-the-land seating may not be viable for across-the-course type competitions where you may have to remove a loaded round.
4. I don't brush and abrade the throat area, causing carbon to have tiny microscopic anchors to grab.
5. I think the main reason is the carbon isn't allowed to stick, harden, and solidify. Bore gets flooded within 45 minutes of finishing for the day.

Let me explain what I mean by this, by the example of case-necks. Immediately after I shoot I wipe the carbon off the case-necks with a little Ballistol on a patch. Carbon comes right off instantly -- no effort. A week later I might need to use steel wool.

I also use soaking, dripping wet patches BEFORE the Wipe-out. That gets almost all the black stuff out of the barrel. With Varget, what's on the patches is dark gray with a little greenish brown on it -- same color as the Kernels.

------- I HAVE seen a carbon ring on my ARs when I was shooting surplus ammo, rapid fire, lots of rounds. I put a lot of solvent in there with a mop and then used a bronze brush. But in all honesty, I never really shot the ARs for sub-MOA accuracy.

----------- Brushing Notes ----

I fully understand that brushing, maybe even aggressive brushing, may be required for some barrels. But I always start out very conservative.

 

[dmoran]

I don't get a carbon ring. ....

I never have either (11 barrels). And opposite of you, I clean with brushes every cleaning.
Can't help but think it boils down to good cleaning regiments, and getting all carbon traces out each time the barrel is cleaned.

 

[Forum Boss]

I also want to add that all foams are NOT the same. Wipe-Out really is different, and it can be even more effective when used with Carb-out.

I am NOT a chemist, but the maker of Wipe-Out says that with repeated applications (a dozen or more), the barrel resists fouling more with time. That could be just the metal smoothing out, but he says the Wipe-Out deposits something on the surface of the steel which helps resist fouling. "Marketing talk"? Maybe. But people are shocked when they scope my barrels after 100s of rounds (with no brushing) and learn I am using the exact same match load adopted when the barrel was at 40 rounds.

I have one friend who doesn't "finalize" his load until a couple hundred rounds through a new barrel. But that's a different cartridge, different course of fire, longer tube.

I also want to add that the short-range BR guys, almost to a man, clean and brush pretty aggressively. However they are also, at least the 6 PPC shooters, chucking their barrels pretty early, maybe at 600 rounds. (30 BR barrels can shot great for much longer it seems.)

 

[dgeesaman]

Will VCIs be enough to protect a fairly dry bore from rust?

I know different people do things different ways but I don't have time for trial and error. It's a lot easier to gather many opinions, research the more popular ones and then pick a way to go.

You can research each popular opinion and find both points and counterpoints about them. I know I’ve tried.

Benchrest shooters are not looking to maximize barrel life per se, rather they want the barrel condition to be absolutely consistent through their relays. And only sparkling clean is perfectly consistent.

Brushes are made of much softer material than barrels. I use them and I try to take care to replace them regularly and of course use a bore guide.

a few things seem to generate agreement:
1) A carbon ring is bad
2) A borescope is the only way to know what’s happening. A borescope allows focused cleaning and thus avoids unnecessary risk to the bore.
3) A borescope will also show scary stuff that can lead to over analysis of a barrel bore.
4) Keep the chamber clean and don’t let junk build up ahead of the brass neck.
5) Many cleaners get corrosive if left in the bore for extended periods of time
6) Be careful with the crown.
7) Barrels clean easier when they are still warm.

Good luck with the rest everything is controversial.

 

[Tommie]

I’ve used many “proven” cleaning methods. The one thing that I’ll never change is the final step: swab bore with colloidal graphite. That was a game changer.

 

[davidjoe]

Does a group really get worse without cleaning? I haven’t been brave enough to try myself. (I don’t get hard carbon rings, ^ either.) It sure doesn’t on precision 22’s.

Bare metal on metal under extreme pressure. Every cleaning cycle renews that state. We normally avoid this in all other situations except rifle cleaning and would expect galling when doing this to metal. (Alligator skin and galling look a lot alike to me.) The fact that fouling shots, sometimes very many, are needed is hard to reconcile with thorough cleaning.

 

[Tommie]

The fact that fouling shots, sometimes very many, are needed is hard to reconcile with thorough cleaning.

Add me to that club

 

[hogpatrol]

Two pages and not one mention of Marvel Mystery Oil. Hmmm.

 

[T-shooter]

Wipe Out / Patch Out works well for removing copper (turns blue if there is any copper) and ThorroClean removes hard carbon. Use a quality coated one piece cleaning rod close to the bore diameter. Work carefully and slowly. Some of these chemicals need to be used several times to completely clean the bore. Afterwards clean with Hoppes#9 (or something similar) and run an oily patch through the bore followed by a dry one.

 

[Dud]

One thing, there is no way for me to use a foam with a warm barrel. I have a 3+ hour drive to my closest 1,000 yard range so the best I can do is a few patches or brush cleaning before I pack up and the barrel cools completely in transit.

I can do it when I go to a 100 yard range but that will only be for load development and zeroing before I stretch it out.

 

[DirtySteve]

Quote: "I run 4-5 patches with copper solvent through the barrel and let it sit for a couple minutes(Any where from 1-5 as I get bored easily). I run a bronze brush about 10 passes. and repeat. Then I run 4-5 patches with some thing for the powder fouling. Brush it a few strokes. I then run a few patches of oil(Kroil) through the barrel. Then a dry patch. Done...... I drag the brush back into the barrel from the muzzle end (some folks shudder at the mere thought of this)."

Honestly, IMHO that is way more work than one really needs to do for a premium custom barrel, unless you are cleaning every 200 rounds or so with a dirty powder. I believe you are wasting cleaning materials, and wasting much of your own valuable time. There are many top F-Class guys who are doing a LOT less brushing than that after 150 rounds.

I should have mentioned I clean after 200-250 rounds...