Berger vs Hornady bullets

[Capt. Oblivious]

That is what I was told last year. I bought 500 Bergers (bulk) and I tried ladder testing to try to get them shoot. After 200 rounds I gave up on my testing and went back to Hornady match.

Below is what I am getting with the Hornady Match.

I also have a rifle that will put ELD's in very small groups from 600 and out, it shoots Bergers well to but loves the 108 ELDs

 

[Dgd6mm]

Somewhere did we forget that a barrel may not shoot a certain bullet? Berger's are not the fix all bullets that a lot want to believe they are.

 

[rijndael]

Somewhere did we forget that a barrel may not shoot a certain bullet? Berger's are not the fix all bullets that a lot want to believe they are.

Or, that they don't share the same 100Y zero. If you just change out the rounds when shooting at 1K, the POI difference is also partially explained by zero differences.

 

[jelenko]

They're not as consistent as Berger straight out of the box

I've found the same. I've used over 50,000 of them in the past 10 years. The Hornady's have produced some really great groups; I've also had to send two of the 4K boxes back to Hornady because they didn't pass their accuracy standard. I couldn't get better than 3" groups at 100 yards.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Bergers are generally more accurate, and perhaps most importantly Bergers won't systematically come apart 100 yards from the muzzle (ELDMs).

 

[Ledd Slinger]

The Hornady A-Max was actually a very consistent bullet compared to the current offerings I have measured and sorted from Hornady. I would often get the A-Max to measure out with around 80% of the bullets fitting into a window of +/- .1 gr of weight, +/- .001” of base to ogive length, and +/- .0005” pressure ring diameter. They were easy to tune and shot very accurately. Although not as consistent as Berger, they were still a good bullet. It’s unfortunate they don’t make that bullet anymore.

With Hornady BTHP match bullets, I was lucky if I could get 60% of a lot to fall within the same sorting window. Sometimes would have 20% of the lot be so far off in specs you’d swear they were made by hand with children in a kindergarten classroom. LOL!

Berger bullets usually give me over 90% consistency within the same sorting specifications and have even had as high as 98% consistency with some of the old lots back when Walt Berger had full control of the reins and first started offering them to the general public. And the small percentage that did not fall within the sorting window were usually only very slightly outside the specs.

 

[CA_Shooter]

Somewhere did we forget that a barrel may not shoot a certain bullet? Berger's are not the fix all bullets that a lot want to believe they are.

I have a 6.5 barrel that shoots 140 ELDs and 136 Scenars much better than 140 Berger Hybrids. Also backed up by the SDs. Not sure if I got a bad lot of Bergers or what

 

[Ledd Slinger]

The top competition shooters in 1K Benchrest and F-Class Open have put just about every long range target bullet out there thru the ringer with extremely rigorous testing and tuning. Yet for some reason you don’t see these top level shooters running Hornady bullets in their rifles. Usually using Berger or a custom boutique bullet like Barts or Vapor Trail when they win all their matches and set all the world records. Berger currently holds the world record group in 1K IBS. Berger has set many agg records over the years as well which is even more impressive. That all holds a lot of weight in my mind and I have come to the same conclusion over the last 15 years testing Berger bullets against many other mainstream brands. I have had a couple barrels where Berger were tougher to tune in but once I found the sweet spot, they outshot everything else.

This is all just my personal experience, but I wouldn’t necessarily call it an opinion because all the competition wins and world records speak for themselves.

The one exception for me personally is the Sierra 39gr BK in 20 cal. For some reason that bullet just shoots flat out in everything I have tested. Arguably the most ‘consistently’ accurate 20 cal bullet across the board in all chamberings and powders used.

 

[INTJ]

Gotta know how to tune Berger. Guarantee with the right powder, primer, seating depth, tension combo Berger would shoot better and definitely agg better if you plan to use it in competition.

Once you get a feel for tuning Berger bullets it becomes pretty easy. Lots of info out there on getting Berger bullets to shoot very well.

As you can see, the 6.67” group you provided is ALL vertical which is not good. Doesn’t look to be in tune, but the vertical is most likely due to the inconsistency of Hornady bullets. If you care to share the exact details of components and methods used when ladder testing Berger bullets then I’m sure some of us could help steer you in the right direction and dial you in for much better accuracy than you are currently getting with the Hornady match bullets. Of course if you’re happy with settling for the accuracy Hornady is giving you then that’s perfectly fine as well. Hope you enjoy your rifle

Generally, Berger's shoot tighter than Hornadys, but not always. Sometimes I have had a Hornady tune better than a Berger.

That said, neither bullet is a proper match bullet as they come out of the box. I do use Berger's for my 30 cal HG. I'll wind up with 11-12 different sorts on the Berger's out of 500. With true custom made match bullets I might find 4 sorts out of 500.

 

[Bill K]

What is different in turning a berger bullet compared to others Ledd Slinger ?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

What is different in turning a berger bullet compared to others Ledd Slinger ?

Not much when up at the lands or jamming.

One big difference that some people don’t know and a piece of advice that’s contrary to what Berger recommends is that Bergers can also be very accurate and forgiving with wide node windows using -.080” to -.120” off the lands. A lot of times you will get the best accuracy with Berger from -.010” off to a +.010” jam. Big magnums often shoot well a little further out around -.020” to -.025” But if a person doesn’t get the accuracy they want in the closer seating ranges for whatever reason, whether it be they are limited with powders or primers on hand for testing or lacking various bushings for tension adjustments, they tend to give up. If a person is limited on components for testing and not getting the results they desire, I always tell people to try seating depths starting at -.060” and work all the way out to -.120”. Often they are surprised with how good the accuracy is and how wide the tune node windows are.

 

[mikecr]

BC on the box is a starting point.

This is true. Local BC is always going to be different than declared.
It usually comes down the the differences in HOW BC was determined, under what conditions, versus local.
I believe Berger BCs are a more accurate starting place, as their numbers are actually adjusted for shooters instead of sales This ironically increasing sales, because we come to trust Berger more than others.

 

[Orr89rocz]

Not much when up at the lands or jamming.

One big difference that some people don’t know and a piece of advice that’s contrary to what Berger recommends is that Bergers can also be very accurate and forgiving with wide node windows using -.080” to -.120” off the lands. A lot of times you will get the best accuracy with Berger from -.010” off to a +.010” jam. Big magnums often shoot well a little further out around -.020” to -.025” But if a person doesn’t get the accuracy they want in the closer seating ranges for whatever reason, whether it be they are limited with powders or primers on hand for testing or lacking various bushings for tension adjustments, they tend to give up. If a person is limited on components for testing and not getting the results they desire, I always tell people to try seating depths starting at -.060” and work all the way out to -.120”. Often they are surprised with how good the accuracy is and how wide the tune node windows are.

Been true for my gun with bergers. Initially i loaded mag length range for a hunting gun. Was surprised how accurate they are. .125 off with 210 vld. The 180 elites are farther than that and shoot great too. But i got a good load .030 off with the 210 vld As well.
i did have a 308 win that does not shoot 168-175 vld with varget at all. But i havent been back farther than .060 off i think. May revisit with different powder and farther off

 

[JFrank]

In a brief synopsis, how is BC confirmed at ones local range?

 

[rwj]

In a brief synopsis, how is BC confirmed at ones local range?

It would seem necessary to know the projectile’s velocity at known distances. Labradar or multiple chronographs along the bullet’s path…

 

[Ledd Slinger]

It’s just a steel shoot but here’s a perfect example of what I’m talking about. Berger takes the whole board at a Hornady shoot.
Mic Drop! LOL!

 

[marchx]

I am not sure whether Hornady sends to Europe garbage or I had just back luck, but Hornady ELDMs I came across were uneven in (a) weight) (b) ogive. The level of variation was so huge that I usually sorted out 5 different groups of bullets out of 100 box. I sold al my ELDs and switched to Bergers because I don't want to spend hours on sorting bullets!

 

[mikecr]

It would seem necessary to know the projectile’s velocity at known distances. Labradar or multiple chronographs along the bullet’s path…

True, and air density conditions have to be accounted for.
BC is tied to form factor w/resp to drag tables, or a drag rate, as determined at a standard atmosphere, and at each velocity point.
For example; Berger uses ICAO, Sierra uses Std.Metro conditions.
But because their bullet drag curves(actual) do not match gov't standard curves, BC changes at different velocity points. Sierra identifies several velocity point differences, Berger chooses a reasonable average.
If the curves matched, maybe you made your own custom curve, then BC would hold as a fixed term.
Most software I've used converts the standard BC you've entered to an internal 'local' BC with air density changes.

So to test and declare BC takes some careful accounting.
For most of us, it's just shooting a bunch of ranges and adjusting BC for best match.
But local air density and MV at least, must be accounted for.

Seems like some bullet makers just go out back and shoot different ranges, and adjust BC in their software to reverse engineer a BC value(like we might), but failing to account for local air density conditions. This would lead to bad solutions every time.

 

[JFrank]

I think Hornday gets a bad rep more than they really should. I have seen they’re bullets shoot very well and sort close as well, I met the fella in charge of the match bullets produced by Hornday at the National’s in August, perhaps he will chime in.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I think Hornday gets a bad rep more than they really should. I have seen they’re bullets shoot very well and sort close as well, I met the fella in charge of the match bullets produced by Hornday at the National’s in August, perhaps he will chime in.

I wouldn’t say they have a bad rep, the simple fact is they aren’t as consistent as Berger bullets. And people who have used them both over the years know this as truth. Hornady bullets are what they are and many people love them so to each his own.

But none of this is breaking news. Berger has always been more consistent than Hornady with measurements and claimed BCs. Reading Brian Litz Doppler testing of bullets, he often finds Hornady exaggerates BCs as much as 50-100 points on the G1 scale. Nosler exaggerates quite a bit as well. Berger is usually pretty close to their BC claims. If the OP was seeing less drop with the Berger bullets at 1K provided both bullets held the same zero point, then that would only help to solidify the findings of Brian Litz