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Berger 208 30 cal?

Hi Steve, I emailed you the other day inquiring about Berger 200.20x's, do you have them in stock?

Thanks,

Mike

Somehow your email to us ended up in my spam folder! Yes, we have plenty of 20xs; they are $225 a box of 500. We don't stock the '06 Lapua brass, but we can sure get it for you the next time we get a shipment! They are $475/500 or $935/1000. We can send out the 20xs TOMORROW if you let us know!
Thanks and good shooting!
Steve & Shirley
 
Back to Varget or did you stick with N150?

I shoot both powders with X bullets. I shot N150 at nationals last year but my Varget load is just as good Accuracy, ES & SD wise and speed is almost identical. It's the same node. Varget load is 43.9 gr and N150 is 44.3 gr. Both run 2645 ish depending on temperature etc. in 30 inch barrel. As for the 208 gr Hybrid, I've only tested it with Varget so far but I have no doubt N150 would work as well. I have yet to see Varget work and N150 not work or vice versa with any bullet I've tested with them.
 
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I shoot both powders with X bullets. I shot N150 at nationals last year but my Varget load is just as good Accuracy, ES & SD wise and speed is almost identical. It's the same node. Varget load is 43.9 gr and N150 is 44.3 gr. Both run 2645 ish depending on temperature etc. in 30 inch barrel. As for the 208 gr Hybrid, I've only tested it with Varget so far but I have no doubt N150 would work as well. I have yet to see Varget work and N150 not work or vice versa with any bullet I've tested with them.

How do the 208 compare to the 20x? Worth changing?
 
Any new info on the testing..?
I've recently been working with the 208s in an F-TR rifle that has fairly long freebore (0.220") and a 30" 10-twist barrel. The 208s over Varget don't seem to have quite the intrinsic precision in a tuned load as the 200.20X. The difference isn't huge in my hands, maybe something like the difference between a true 0.25 MOA load and one at about 0.30-0.35 MOA or so. I recently used them in a 600 yd match and observed more vertical than I would have liked, which cost me an unacceptable number of points. I am still not sure if some part of that could have been due to the bullet/load, although the simplest and most obvious explanation was that I was missing some key component of the wind condition changes. Nonetheless, I have been doing a few experiments since then to see whether I can tighten the load vertical up a bit. My overall take on the bullet is that it's a good design, but I'm not sure that it's the equal or better of the 200.20X. That shouldn't be too surprising as the 200.20X bullet is one of those truly outstanding designs that only comes along once in a while.

For the obvious reason of how long the 208s are, you'll want a chamber with at least 0.170"-0.180" freebore, so the boattail/bearing surface junction is seated well above the neck/shoulder junction. Perhaps less obvious is the effect of the extra 8 gr weight as compared to the 200.20X. In my hands, a load with Varget is tuning in at around 2590-2600 fps (30" barrel). They can certainly be pushed faster, but QuickLoad predicts pressures in the neighborhood of 63.5K psi (or higher) when loading them in the neighborhood of 2620 fps, which could affect brass life, even with Palma (SRP) brass. Although Palma brass is tough and can take much higher operating pressures for a noticeably longer time than standard (LRP) .308 Win brass, I generally choose not to run loads predicted to be in the 63-64K psi range (or higher). BC estimates for the 208s from LabRadar velocity drop data ran in the upper 0.360s to low 0.370s, which is a tick higher than the Berger's published value of 0.354, possibly due to the relatively short distance over which the velocity was measured (55 yd). Nonetheless, in side-by-side measurements made using pointed 200.20Xs, BC estimates of around 0.345 to 0.350 were generated, suggesting the BC of the 208 is around 6% higher than pointed 200.20X bullets. So the question is really whether the 208s, with their 8 gr heavier weight, can actually be pushed fast enough at reasonable operating pressure to at least equal, or come very close to equalling, the predicted performance (wind deflection) of the 200.20X bullet running at around 2650 fps. I think the answer there is that the predicted windages of the two bullets are going to be pretty close, but it doesn't look from the velocity I've been running them that they are going to noticeably surpass the performance of the 200.20Xs.

I have previously also worked up a load with the 215 Hybrid and although the load grouped well, the higher BC of the 215 is largely a wash due to the much slower velocity at which they can reasonably be pushed (~2560 fps in my hands). The heavier bullets generally have higher BCs, but also run at much slower velocity due to the extra weight. The end result seems to be that the predicted performances are close to being equal to the 200.20X bullet at ~2650 fps, but not noticeably better. So the real questions about differences between the various 200+ gr .30 cal bullets seem to be more about the intrinsic precision and recoil management, rather than a noticeable improvement in wind deflection due to a higher BC. I cannot detect any noticeable difference in felt recoil between the 200.20Xs at ~2650 fps and the 208s at ~2600 fps. In contrast, there was a small but noticeable increase in felt recoil when running the 215s at 2560 fps.

The good news about the 208 Hybrid is that it is currently available (actually in stock) at several different vendors. There were a couple places that had the 200.20Xs in stock in the last couple days, but not surprisingly, they disappeared within a very short time, like minutes LOL. Berger has recently suggested that more 200.20Xs should be available at retailers in the Jan/Feb 2022 time frame. But I have no idea how many they actually made or whether they will remain in stock longer than a few minutes once everyone that wants some finds out they are available. If you have a rifle set up to accommodate the 208s (i.e. 30" barrel, minimum 10-twist, minimum 0.170"-0.180" freebore), the easiest thing to do would be to buy a box or two and see how they shoot in your setup. If they work satisfactorily, you can buy a larger quantity, which at this point in time will likely be the same Lot# if you purchase them from the same provider.
 
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I don't have any new "data" to share per se, but have continued to carry out load development with the 208s. My overall observation is that they can be made to shoot well, but it has taken a lot more work than with the 200.20X bullet, which has always tuned in very easily for me. I am using Varget, Alpha .308 Win SRP brass, and Fed 205 primers.

The first thing I noticed about the 208s is that they seem to have a lot more nose folds, dings, and other anomalies than the 200.20X bullets. They just aren't nearly as "pretty" out of the box as the 200.20Xs. I have no idea whether this is a QC issue, but I have observed the same thing with multiple Lot #s of the 208s. I wonder whether they might actually be using a different jacket with the 208s, but do not have an answer to that question.

The second comment I would make is that I don't care for the factory points. I wish Berger would stop doing that and let us point bullets ourselves. They cannot devote the [necessary] attention to the pointing process during mass production that an individual reloader can. After quite a bit of testing using various pointing inserts with my Whidden pointing die, I have settled on using the # 0 insert to re-point the 208s, using the absolute minimum amount of re-pointing necessary to undo/redo what was done during the production process. This does not increase the BC of the 208s as compared to bullets loaded straight out of the box. However, it does reduce the SD of the average BC estimated using LabRadar velocity decrease data. Further, it also seems to help reduce the number of unexplained fliers.

Ordinarily, I would never have gone to the lengths I have with the 208s in order to get a particular bullet to shoot. However, last year I had barrels chambered for two of my primary F-TR rifles (two each) with a much longer freebore than is necessary for the 200.20X bullet. I specifically had the reamer designed with the notion of seating the 208 and 215 Hybrid bullets optimally, and set the freebore such that there would still be ~0.5 caliber of bullet bearing surface seated in the neck with the 200.20X bullet. Unfortunately, the 200.20Xs in my hands don't seem to like being seated way out in the neck, and they simply don't shoot as well as they do in chambers specifically set up for them with a freebore in the 0.170" to 0.180" range. In retrospect, going with the much longer freebore was a pretty risky undertaking. But it is done and I am therefore willing to put more effort into getting the 208s to shoot well as a result. If I had to do it all over again, I would simply go with the 0.180" freebore reamer I have that I know works extremely well with the 200.20Xs, and buy a boatload of them whenever they are available. Frankly, I don't think there is a better choice of bullet currently available for shooting F-TR than the 200.20X bullet. The good news is that I have a couple other rifles chambered with 0.180" freebore, so I will continue to use those in matches while I work on getting the 208s to perform like I want them to.
 
Checking with the berger stability calculator shows a 10 twist barrel will not achieve full stabilisation for the 208g for ftr at sea level and a 9.5T or faster does.
 
How do the 208 compare to the 20x? Worth changing?
I tested the 208 for 200 rounds , and just could not get consistency from them . Adjusted load , seating depth ,neck interference , and they just wouldn't settle down . Maybe I wasn't holding my mouth just right but who knows ? Went back to the 20x .
 
After supply issues here in South Africa we started testing the 208s. We started seeing great results
around 2610-2625fps and 2650-2660. But the lower node did a better job on the waterline over 20 shots. Ballistics isnt everything. We shot the 208s next to the 20x in team matches and the 208s did better. The waterline was more predictable on the 208s.
No "WTF" shots that the 20x are known for ....
The team switched over to 208s for the Worlds... the rest is history.
FYI-- N150 was powder of choice over Varget.
 
After supply issues here in South Africa we started testing the 208s. We started seeing great results
around 2610-2625fps and 2650-2660. But the lower node did a better job on the waterline over 20 shots. Ballistics isnt everything. We shot the 208s next to the 20x in team matches and the 208s did better. The waterline was more predictable on the 208s.
No "WTF" shots that the 20x are known for ....
The team switched over to 208s for the Worlds... the rest is history.
FYI-- N150 was powder of choice over Varget.
May i ask what barrel twist used with your 208g loads plus how far bullets seated off Lands which gave optimun results, Thanks.
 
I have shot a few thousand 208s mostly in mu 300saum improved and several hundred in the wsm. I shot lots of 200s 215s and 210s. The 208s out shot all of these bullets for score and vertical is the best I have seen to date in fclass. Node at 2930fps 32" barrel. Stys in tune for a very long time. I will never go back to the other said bullets. Only 208s for me.
 

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