Berger 208 30 cal?

[Pinkes]

tagging

 

[Ilya S.]

I got to shoot the Berger 208's

Hi Bill. What is freebore of your chamber and barrel twist, contour and length ? What jump for this test rounds?
And please, could you measure the COAL of 208's cartridge with

CBTO of 2.350

Best,
Ilya

 

[willbas]

Hi Bill. What is freebore of your chamber and barrel twist, contour and length ? What jump for this test rounds?
And please, could you measure the COAL of 208's cartridge with


Best,
Ilya

.170 feebore 1-10 HV 30 inch .008 off lands

 

[Ilya S.]

.170 feebore 1-10 HV 30 inch .008 off lands

Thank you ! And what the overall cartridge length ? something around 3.010 ?
(not for copying, just for QLoad modelling)

 

[Pinkes]

I believe these bullets will shoot great but very dissapointed in there BC. Heavier than 200gr is not ideal in FTR rigs.If they point the 20x from the factory would be a better idea. Or release a 190gr with 0.64-0.67 BC. Everyone runs 10twist barrels by now.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Personally, I'd rather Berger does not point the 200.20Xs at the factory. I can do a much better job pointing bullets on my own at home. So can anyone else willing to invest a fairly small amount of money and time.

 

[Willow]

That's a good question. I prefer to point my own bullets because I can do it with much greater consistency than the manufacturer, and it's really not that much work. The point I was trying make is that solely in terms of BC, several of the new offerings from Berger do not represent much (if any) of an advantage over the bullets we've already been using from them for some time. In order to illustrate that fact, you have to be comparing apples to apples (i.e. comparing BCs of bullets pointed by the user to bullets pointed at the factory).

As you noted, for some having bullets pointed by the manufacturer will be a bonus. Nonetheless, I'm hoping there is some additional advantage to some of these new bullets above and beyond that. For example, with its longer bearing surface, does the 208 show better stability than the 200.20X? Or at least, reduced pitch/yaw straight out of the bore? I can imagine there might be better reasons to be shooting these bullets than a perceived increased in BC, which effectively disappears if you're already pointing bullets at home.

In reference to your question regarding bearing surface/stability, this 208gr bullet with it's long bearing surface, at least to me looks like a super sized 108gr BT, which is one of the most accurate bullets Berger has ever developed, and is very jump tolerant and easy to get shooting small groups - just my observations. While you can get a better BC by pointing the 215gr hybrids, I'm confident there's something in the design that makes this bullet worthwhile.

I ran numbers through Berger's ballistic calculator and a 208gr moving at 2950fps will just shoot inside of a non-pointed 215gr moving at 2920fps. In respect to this velocity I'm looking at something like a 300wsm for arguments sake. I run pointed 184s in a 280AI at a cruisy 2810fps and both bullets will shoot inside the 184 at the velocity I currently run.

 

[XTR]

@Willow The real target market for this bullet is the F-TR competitor so think speeds in the 2550 to 2650 range for non-nuclear loads. The two most used bullets in F-TR today are Berger's 200.20x and 200 hybrid. Both have been used to win pretty much everything, and both can be tuned to shoot extremely well in a 308 at 1000 yards with a slight edge in BC to the 20x and some folks saying they can get a better vertical from the 200H, though it's hard to tell for sure.

I haven't tested the 208 yet. [sarcasm]I've noted before that Capstone forgot to call me about the release of these last yr and I took delivery of 4000ea 200.20x bullets just before Christmas[/sarcasm] . On top of that I just got back the shipment of 500+ loaded rounds that I'd shipped to South Africa last fall for a trip that got cancelled this month. Add in the already cancelled matches this yr and I'm pretty well set for this yr and next.

That said, I do want to get these running, and I have some friends testing the 208s with F-TR rifles and they seem to be getting precision on the level of the 200.20x at velocities that we think of as the "low node" for the 200.20x(low-mid 2600s). I think it's going to work, and it will save the time pointing bullets.

Berger doesn't really point these in what we think of in the classic sense. They have figured out how to get the lead core up into the meplat so the cavity at the nose is gone and the meplats are uniform and smaller than traditional HP target bullets.

 

[Ned Ludd]

@Willow The real target market for this bullet is the F-TR competitor so think speeds in the 2550 to 2650 range for non-nuclear loads. The two most used bullets in F-TR today are Berger's 200.20x and 200 hybrid. Both have been used to win pretty much everything, and both can be tuned to shoot extremely well in a 308 at 1000 yards with a slight edge in BC to the 20x and some folks saying they can get a better vertical from the 200H, though it's hard to tell for sure.

I haven't tested the 208 yet. [sarcasm]I've noted before that Capstone forgot to call me about the release of these last yr and I took delivery of 4000ea 200.20x bullets just before Christmas[/sarcasm] . On top of that I just got back the shipment of 500+ loaded rounds that I'd shipped to South Africa last fall for a trip that got cancelled this month. Add in the already cancelled matches this yr and I'm pretty well set for this yr and next.

That said, I do want to get these running, and I have some friends testing the 208s with F-TR rifles and they seem to be getting precision on the level of the 200.20x at velocities that we think of as the "low node" for the 200.20x(low-mid 2600s). I think it's going to work, and it will save the time pointing bullets.

Berger doesn't really point these in what we think of in the classic sense. They have figured out how to get the lead core up into the meplat so the cavity at the nose is gone and the meplats are uniform and smaller than traditional HP target bullets.

^^^This. In other cartridges, it may be possible to hit the desired velocity/node, even with the additional 8 gr bullet weight. In a .308 Win, you can do it (i.e. Palma brass will take it), but will be running pressures similar to those obtained running the 200.20X bullets at 2700+ fps. I simply choose not to do that, more for reasons of gun handling than pressure isues. Nonetheless, there is some anecdotal information out there that the 208s are capable of tuning in extremely well, so they are probably worth a try for any F-TR shooters thinking of giving them a go.

 

[willbas]

I got to shoot the Berger 208's yesterday I was using Varget with a CBTO of 2.350. Center target is Berger 200.20X at 43.4 of Varget same CBTO, the one to the left was me moving windage 1 check left. I now need to check on speed and SD.


View attachment 1163084

I have a bunch of bullets loaded at 43.1 grains with different CBTO. but no place to shoot all ranges closed in Calif.

 

[Tony1320]

@Willow The real target market for this bullet is the F-TR competitor so think speeds in the 2550 to 2650 range for non-nuclear loads. The two most used bullets in F-TR today are Berger's 200.20x and 200 hybrid. Both have been used to win pretty much everything, and both can be tuned to shoot extremely well in a 308 at 1000 yards with a slight edge in BC to the 20x and some folks saying they can get a better vertical from the 200H, though it's hard to tell for sure.

I haven't tested the 208 yet. [sarcasm]I've noted before that Capstone forgot to call me about the release of these last yr and I took delivery of 4000ea 200.20x bullets just before Christmas[/sarcasm] . On top of that I just got back the shipment of 500+ loaded rounds that I'd shipped to South Africa last fall for a trip that got cancelled this month. Add in the already cancelled matches this yr and I'm pretty well set for this yr and next.

That said, I do want to get these running, and I have some friends testing the 208s with F-TR rifles and they seem to be getting precision on the level of the 200.20x at velocities that we think of as the "low node" for the 200.20x(low-mid 2600s). I think it's going to work, and it will save the time pointing bullets.

Berger doesn't really point these in what we think of in the classic sense. They have figured out how to get the lead core up into the meplat so the cavity at the nose is gone and the meplats are uniform and smaller than traditional HP target bullets.

Would you happen to know what powder and freebore they are using with the 208s?

 

[XTR]

There are a number of answers to that one. Freebores are all over the place, from guys trying to run them in .170s to much longer. Only powder I am sure of is Varget.

I've played with a couple of sample bullets in my chambers here. If you want the boat tail up out of the case and the bearing surface engagement at about .150 or so then you will need a freebore over 200.

Based on my measurements the 208 is a 200.20x with a longer bearing surface, maybe more boat tail, and "factory pointed".


I have a chamber that I think is about perfect for the 208s. For comparison, at touch the 200.20x CBTO is 2.413 and OAL is 3.2, falling out of the case. The 208 has the exact same measurements with in the variation of bullet lots, but with about .100 more bearing surface in the case.

I've got another set of strain gauges on order for my pressure trace. When I get them in I'll run some pressure comparison numbers with the 208s and the 200.20x. (guess I need to order some 208s)

 

[Down South]

Would you happen to know what powder and freebore they are using with the 208s?

I've only tested them with Varget so far. I throated out a older 9 twist barrel for them that i used for a while with a shorter chamber. I'm guessing the freebore is about .250 ish now. It seats the 208 hybrid long but seems to be shooting pretty well in testing so far. I haven't shot it at 1000 yards, yet.

 

[dcali]

A couple observations on the design *not having shot them*, so take that for what it's worth. To me, the 208 looks more like an alternative to the 215 than a step up from the 200.20X. It's shorter than the 215, lighter, and has the same BC. That's a win on all levels.

Relative to the 200.20X, the differences look less clear. The 208 is longer (bad), heavier (bad), and requires a faster twist (bad). The BC difference is mostly accounted for by its increased weight (within the uncertainty of the numbers, in my opinion). That's not surprising, as the 200.20X is a well designed drag optimized bullet. There will be no leaps up in BC over it without adding weight or stretching the limits of length beyond what is prudent (in my opinion).

As for ballistics, the 208 has a slight edge (out of a .308), but it's only about .4 MOA at 1000 yards in a 10 mph cross wind. That's assuming box BCs, 2575 fps for the 208 and 2625 fps for the 200 at sea level.

And as a shameless plug - if you want to play around with these numbers, I've made some calculators that help - the first one estimates velocity for one bullet based on that of the known velocity of a different bullet.

https://bisonballistics.com/calculators/velocity_estimation

The second is a ballistics calculator that spits out output in a format that makes it easy to compare two different bullets.

https://bisonballistics.com/calculators/bullet_comparison

Enjoy!

 

[Ned Ludd]

A couple observations on the design *not having shot them*, so take that for what it's worth. To me, the 208 looks more like an alternative to the 215 than a step up from the 200.20X. It's shorter than the 215, lighter, and has the same BC. That's a win on all levels.

Except it isn't, not really. The BC of the new 208s is very close to the values for pointed 200.20Xs. Because the 200.20Xs and 215s are not pointed at the factory, whereas 208s are pointed, a straight-up comparison is not an apples-to-apples comparison in my opinion, regardless of the weight or external dimensions. Pointed 215s have a BC that is almost 5% higher than the 208s.

Although it will always depend to some extent on the shooter/reloader and their specific setup, the velocities routinely obtained for tuned loads by many F-TR shooters with 200.20Xs and 215s fall roughly about 100 fps apart with a typical 30" barrel length. The 208s are likely to tune in somewhere in between the two. If you compare the external ballistics of those three bullets using realistic velocities and the BCs for pointed bullets in tuned loads, there is not going to be a *huge* difference in windage between any of the three. Although it's great to have a variety of different .30 cal bullet choices from Berger in the 200 to 215 gr bullet range, it's unlikely that the deciding factor for most F-TR shooters would be a noticeable difference in wind deflection, as they're all going to be fairly close. In such a scenario, some other aspect of performance, perhaps less obvious than BC, such as consistency, precision, or even a deep-seated hatred of pointing bullets is more likely to be the deciding factor.

 

[ben_g]

Except it's really not. The BC of the new 208s is very close to the values for pointed 200.20Xs. Because the 200.20Xs and 215s are not pointed at the factory, whereas 208s are pointed, a straight-up comparison is not an apples-to-apples comparison in my opinion, regardless of the weight or external dimensions. Pointed 215s have a BC that is almost 5% higher than the 208s, pointed 200.20Xs have a BC very close to that of the 208s.

Although it will always depend to some extent on the shooter/reloader and their specific setup, the velocities routinely obtained for tuned loads by many F-TR shooters with 200.20Xs and 215s fall roughly about 100 fps apart with a typical 30" barrel length. The 208s are likely to tune in somewhere in between the two. If you compare the external ballistics of those three bullets using realistic velocities and the BCs for pointed bullets in tuned loads, there is not going to be a *huge* difference in windage between any of the three. Although it's great to have a variety of different .30 cal bullet choices from Berger in the 200 to 215 gr bullet range, it's unlikely that the deciding factor for most F-TR shooters would be a noticeable difference in wind deflection, as they're all going to be fairly close. In such a scenario, some other aspect of performance such as consistency, precision, or even a deep-seated hatred of pointing bullets is more likely to be the deciding factor.

As someone who shoots 215’s in a 300WSM for F-open I’m not really seeing where either the 220 or 208gr options fit into the picture.
Pointing a 215 will yield an estimated BC pretty close to that of the new 220 and well above the 208.
The 215 is a pretty forgiving bullet to tune already.

I have considered trying the 200.20X in the WSM, but haven’t actually done so yet, mainly because the 215’s are so easy to get going. But also due to reports of the 200.20X being somewhat finicky to tune, I’m assuming that’s due to their relatively short bearing surface in relation to their OAL.

If the 208 is much easier to tune due to its extra bearing surface length I can see why it might be preferable to the 200.20X

But a pointed 200.20X at around 3000fps would be very effective if it shoots accurately...... will get around to it one day.

 

[dcali]

Except it isn't, not really. The BC of the new 208s is very close to the values for pointed 200.20Xs. Because the 200.20Xs and 215s are not pointed at the factory, whereas 208s are pointed, a straight-up comparison is not an apples-to-apples comparison in my opinion, regardless of the weight or external dimensions. Pointed 215s have a BC that is almost 5% higher than the 208s.

Although it will always depend to some extent on the shooter/reloader and their specific setup, the velocities routinely obtained for tuned loads by many F-TR shooters with 200.20Xs and 215s fall roughly about 100 fps apart with a typical 30" barrel length. The 208s are likely to tune in somewhere in between the two. If you compare the external ballistics of those three bullets using realistic velocities and the BCs for pointed bullets in tuned loads, there is not going to be a *huge* difference in windage between any of the three. Although it's great to have a variety of different .30 cal bullet choices from Berger in the 200 to 215 gr bullet range, it's unlikely that the deciding factor for most F-TR shooters would be a noticeable difference in wind deflection, as they're all going to be fairly close. In such a scenario, some other aspect of performance, perhaps less obvious than BC, such as consistency, precision, or even a deep-seated hatred of pointing bullets is more likely to be the deciding factor.

I meant its a win vs the 215. If the 215 has the same BC, but it's longer and heavier, then all else equal, the 208 is better. The all else equal is admittedly difficult to ascertain. As you've said, how htey tune i a particular barrel and at what velocity matters quite a bit. But if I'm picking a bullet to try from scratch, I'm trying the 208 before I try the 215.

And this all assumes a .308 custom like a TR rifle. And yes, I'm ignoring pointing.

 

[Down South]

Here's a little update on the 208 hybrid from my testing so far in one of my FTR chassis guns. Robin and i went out last Saturday to test on property he has access to. It's roughly 965-970 yards and he has a E-target. We got there just after daylight and the wind was already blowing but not too bad. It was fish tailing from behind while shooting. I fouled the barrel with several shots, once getting lined up i shot 20 for record. Without any wind flags or indicators i shot 197-8X just kinda chasing the spotter. The gun shot well considering the conditions and nothing to look at for indicators. After i shot the string Robin pulled out his .284 and did some testing as well. He setup and used his Kestrel and shot very well with it (i should have used it as well!). Once he was done shooting i grabbed my other FTR chassis gun that i shoot 200.20X bullets in and proceeded to shoot a string with it. I used the Kestrel this time and only shot when conditions were pretty consistent according to what it said. The score was 200-9X. I think both loads (208 hybrid and 20X) can win matches and are pretty similar accuracy wise. I'm still on the fence whether it's worth switching over to the 208 hybrid over the 200.20X bullet. I need to shoot a few matches in different wind conditions and compare. Well, that's my .02 so far from what i've seen. It's still about as clear as mud right now.......

 

[Mike Conroy]

We now have them in stock!
steve@mcgeestocks.com

Hi Steve, I emailed you the other day inquiring about Berger 200.20x's, do you have them in stock?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[avidflyer]

Here's a little update on the 208 hybrid from my testing so far in one of my FTR chassis guns. Robin and i went out last Saturday to test on property he has access to. It's roughly 965-970 yards and he has a E-target. We got there just after daylight and the wind was already blowing but not too bad. It was fish tailing from behind while shooting. I fouled the barrel with several shots, once getting lined up i shot 20 for record. Without any wind flags or indicators i shot 197-8X just kinda chasing the spotter. The gun shot well considering the conditions and nothing to look at for indicators. After i shot the string Robin pulled out his .284 and did some testing as well. He setup and used his Kestrel and shot very well with it (i should have used it as well!). Once he was done shooting i grabbed my other FTR chassis gun that i shoot 200.20X bullets in and proceeded to shoot a string with it. I used the Kestrel this time and only shot when conditions were pretty consistent according to what it said. The score was 200-9X. I think both loads (208 hybrid and 20X) can win matches and are pretty similar accuracy wise. I'm still on the fence whether it's worth switching over to the 208 hybrid over the 200.20X bullet. I need to shoot a few matches in different wind conditions and compare. Well, that's my .02 so far from what i've seen. It's still about as clear as mud right now.......

Back to Varget or did you stick with N150?