Berger 105's VLD vs Hybrid

[liseo]

I found that .002 but i ruff it in first with big jumps. I go as low as .001 to find the window and set in the middle to allow for seating variations but now i have the handle on that, i can hold less than a .001 variation but you met have uniform neck tension……. jim

Thanks

 

[gman88188]

Like I said I like the VLDs much better. I would like to find the BT Match just to see if I like them better.

 

[ShootDots]

Like I said I like the VLDs much better. I would like to find the BT Match just to see if I like them better.

I have tried both the 105 VLD's and the 105 BT/Match... They are BOTH excellent. However, the VLD's take a bit more tuning with seating depths than the BT's. Once found, it is very difficult to beat the VLD's but the BT/Match is neck and neck for accuracy. Hybrids, on the other hand, are accurate BUT I don't believe they can match either the VLD's OR the BT/Match. There is one thing to consider though, the Hybrids are only a little less accurate BUT carry about 77 "B.C. Points" over the BT/ Match and 60 over the VLD's. This makes them more attractive for F-Open IF you can make them shoot 1/2 M.O.A or slightly under.. I prefer 1/3 M.O.A. and that is VERY difficult to obtain with a Hybrid. I am currently working on one of my Dashers with them. Wish me luck as it appears I will need it!

 

[johara1]

If you check the length of the 105 Hybrid stated with the BC they have for them against the ones you have. I think you will be a lot closer BC. of the VLD than you think. With the exception of the old lot the ones now are .050+ shorter ……. jim

 

[Judd]

I have tried both the 105 VLD's and the 105 BT/Match... They are BOTH excellent. However, the VLD's take a bit more tuning with seating depths than the BT's. Once found, it is very difficult to beat the VLD's but the BT/Match is neck and neck for accuracy. Hybrids, on the other hand, are accurate BUT I don't believe they can match either the VLD's OR the BT/Match. There is one thing to consider though, the Hybrids are only a little less accurate BUT carry about 77 "B.C. Points" over the BT/ Match and 60 over the VLD's. This makes them more attractive for F-Open IF you can make them shoot 1/2 M.O.A or slightly under.. I prefer 1/3 M.O.A. and that is VERY difficult to obtain with a Hybrid. I am currently working on one of my Dashers with them. Wish me luck as it appears I will need it!

You can get them there...that is not my experience at all. I find the hybrids were more accurate in my first dasher to the point I didn't even try VLD's in my past 2 and even my 6slr.

This last dasher I just did get tuned took right at 200 bullets to tune. The first 100 were fireformed and basically worthless first 100 until the barrel settles in anyway. So total of 300 rounds and I'm ready...that gun won't get shot hardly at all unless it is at a match now.

Take a powder charge you like, and load all of them .010 jammed...take them to the range with an arbor press. Shoot two bullets if they touch shoot a third...if they don't then turn your die .003 in and do the same. You'll find a seating depth it likes better than the others. Then you can work .001 increments around the one it liked. Once you find the seating depth then go back and increase/decrease (depending on what your primer is telling you) your powder charge. Once I have all of that I'll take 30 shells and shoot 6 5 shot groups....I put dots on a paper like this:

X X
X X
X X

First column on left is one neck tension right column is another
First row is a CCI450
Second row is BR4
Third row is 205M

One will shoot and have lower SD/ES than the others...then I come back and prove that is able to be duplicated time and time again.

Normally after doing all that I've got a load that will shoot. Keep in mind I'm not shooting as small as a lot of these guys shooting 600 & 1000y benchrest but these guns will shoot 2 1/4" clays at 400y. Also, I'm doing all this with a barrel twist that Berger says isn't recommended

 

[dkhunt14]

2 1/4 inches at 400 is not good enough to win at 600 or 1000. I did a lot of load testing at 400 and if you can't shoot 5 shots in an inch you might as well stay home. If you look at the top 10 at The 600 Yard IBS Nationals score and group and light and heavy there was only one shooter with a hybrid. You can watch the chronograph all you want and just because you have a low ES doesn't mean it will shoot at 1000. I have seen 10 shot strings with 2 ES and they wouldn't shoot under 15 inches vertical at 1000. The same gun with ES of ten would shoot 4 inches at 1000. Groups is what counts. Matt

 

[KevinBaker]

Matt,

This is a little off the original topic, but I just finished a 500 rd box of the 105 hybrids, and I'm about to begin shooting a newer lot of 500. How would you approach the new lot? I've sorted all of them base to ogive with a comparator, but they're a little shorter than the last 500 I went through. This is an already developed load, so Should I Load them as I would have previously?

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[dixieppc]

Matt,

This is a little off the original topic, but I just finished a 500 rd box of the 105 hybrids, and I'm about to begin shooting a newer lot of 500. How would you approach the new lot? I've sorted all of them base to ogive with a comparator, but they're a little shorter than the last 500 I went through. This is an already developed load, so Should I Load them as I would have previously?

Kevin, I know you were asking Matt this but if I can be so bold as to offer my opinion... Let the gun tell you the answer to that question.

Best Regards,

 

[dkhunt14]

Matt,

This is a little off the original topic, but I just finished a 500 rd box of the 105 hybrids, and I'm about to begin shooting a newer lot of 500. How would you approach the new lot? I've sorted all of them base to ogive with a comparator, but they're a little shorter than the last 500 I went through. This is an already developed load, so Should I Load them as I would have previously?

Thanks,

Kevin

I don't believe I'm off topic. A lot of guns won't shoot the Hybrids was the point I was trying to make. I also was trying to tell you how small you need to be able to shoot. I used to do all my testing at 400 so I kind of know what groups need to be shot to win. My guns will not shoot the Hybrids good enough and most of the Dashers that I see will not shoot them small enough. The topic of the 600 Yard Nationals was to show that when you have the best guns in the country at a shoot and to show what is winning. I have found that when a Hybrid is shorter it is fatter. It seemed the fatter shot worse then the skinny ones. Ask Jim O'Hara about that. Matt

 

[johara1]

Matt is right again…….. I would turn my attention toward the 105 hunting VLD. The Hybrid seems to be a crap shoot for accuracy, if you get a good lot …… at 500 yds. they will do under .6"not 2 1/4". One lot out of four shot good for me, thats 25% are you willing to go with those odds? I have a friend that is shooting some of the fat one's reasonably well but what will the next lot do? It seems to me something changed with the Hybrid from the first good lot i had, i do know they were a lot longer. The newer ones are only 1.230 - 40 area……… jim

 

[dkhunt14]

Kbaker I would first try to change the seating depth of the new bullet to match the base to ogive measurement of your load from before that your gun liked. Hopefully this will work for you. Sometimes they shoot as good as before. Sometimes you need to move them to a different spot. I really struggled with the Hybrid and couldn't get them to shoot near as good as the Hunting VLD. I only saw one gun that liked the Hybrid and it was a 6x47 and the guy was really pushing them. I believe around 3200. Matt

 

[KevinBaker]

Matt,

This is a little off the original topic, but I just finished a 500 rd box of the 105 hybrids, and I'm about to begin shooting a newer lot of 500. How would you approach the new lot? I've sorted all of them base to ogive with a comparator, but they're a little shorter than the last 500 I went through. This is an already developed load, so Should I Load them as I would have previously?

Kevin, I know you were asking Matt this but if I can be so bold as to offer my opinion... Let the gun tell you the answer to that question.

Best Regards,

Thanks for the reply, and I'm going to do just that.

 

[Longone1]

So If I understood this thread the Hybrid is a crap shoot whether or not it shoots well. There have been changes to the bullet from the early lots to current production? Is there a lot number that will distinguish where the break in production was?

The VLD 105 seems (at least from what I have read) to be easier to tune to each rifle? Some prefer the Hunting VLD but don't they have a thinner jacket and are more prone to not making the target at longer distances?

I have a box of lot #6384 Hybrid on the way, any ideas of where this lot # falls, early or late?

Longone

 

[ShootDots]

Like I said I like the VLDs much better. I would like to find the BT Match just to see if I like them better.

I have tried both the 105 VLD's and the 105 BT/Match... They are BOTH excellent. However, the VLD's take a bit more tuning with seating depths than the BT's. Once found, it is very difficult to beat the VLD's but the BT/Match is neck and neck for accuracy. Hybrids, on the other hand, are accurate BUT I don't believe they can match either the VLD's OR the BT/Match. There is one thing to consider though, the Hybrids are only a little less accurate BUT carry about 77 "B.C. Points" over the BT/ Match and 60 over the VLD's. This makes them more attractive for F-Open IF you can make them shoot 1/2 M.O.A or slightly under.. I prefer 1/3 M.O.A. and that is VERY difficult to obtain with a Hybrid. I am currently working on one of my Dashers with them. Wish me luck as it appears I will need it!

Well a week ago I finished my "new load" with my "New Dasher".. I tried and tried to no avail to get the Hybrids to shoot the way I want them to shoot. So I went to a Berger 105 VLD and used VV N540. I went from 32.0 to 33.3grs of the powder with CCI BR4's. The VLD's were seated 12-13K INTO the lands. I was amazed at what was transpiring! At 33.0grs I was getting all the bullets touching at 300 yards. So I made up 30 of them (6 groups of 5 shots) and took it back out. ALL the groups shot between a "smidgen under" .500 and a "smidgen over" .750" at 300 yards. The speed was 3060f.p.s. with E.S.'s in the 6-9f.p.s. range! Needless to say, I am going to give them a shot at our next 600 yard match the 3rd week of this month.. I think it is going to be very difficult to overcome! So far, I have NOT been able to beat the VLD's for pure accuracy..

 

[johara1]

Ben, I think the 105h gives the Dasher a bad name……. lol. What else do you expect from the 105 VLD …… it a winner. I really think it is the jacket on the hybrid that makes it shoot al over the place, but if you happen to get a good batch you can look like a star. The published length of 1.290 and a BC.552 is a joke to say the least. Only the lot i set the record with was 1.270+ and now you are lucky to find 1.250……… jim

 

[ShootDots]

Well Jim, I shoot the Berger 105 VLD's and the 105 JLK VLD's... Both give me better CONSISTENT accuracy than any other projectile I have tried. However, the Berger and Scenar 105's B/T's are also very excellent>>> they just don't have the B.C.'s that the VLD's do. AND even though they both shoot excellently, they can NOT top the good ole' VLD.. They MIGHT equal it's accuracy in certain barrels BUT they won't top it! That I have found out over many years of trial and error>>and let's face it, experience and "real time" shooting versus theorem, prevail at the end of the day..

 

[rmist]

Although I'm shooting the 105 H's out of a straight BR they seem to be shooting very well. They do average 1.255" in length, none as long as Jim mentioned. At 200 yards 5 shot groups in the low 2's to high 1's. At 600 yards I averaged 2.65" over 8 targets and it was a windy match. I know that's not fantastic but it did alright for the day. I was in the top 10 for the day. I am going to stick with them for right now. I still haven't received my Dasher rifle yet !! I'm hoping now for a late February arrival.

Rmist

 

[flatlander]

I shoot 6 Dashers & 6x47s in BR Varmint Silhouette & practical/tactical steel matches, and 6 RAT & 6 HAGAR AR 15s in XC HP. I really appreciate the Hybrid's BC in the Dasher when shooting at the rather small silhouette targets at 500m when the wind funnels & swirls around & through the draw that runs across our club's HP silhouette range, but it's pickier to get to shoot than B105VLD, Lap 105 Scenar, or even S107MK.

The two 6x47s I'm shooting in steel matches neither one really like the Hybrid as much as S107MKs - the M700 has a Bartlein 5R .237"bore 1-8tw, while the Bighorn has a Krieger 4-groove .236"bore 1-8tw, both finished at 26". I got better, more consistent results with hunting VLDs jumping them .030" than jamming .010"-.020". Even though our practical steel targets are generally pretty large compared to F-class or BR, you're still handicapped with loads that won't shoot at least 1/2 MOA once you get out past 800yds. The load that hammers best out of the Bighorn uses old surplus Data 86 powder & S107MKs, which is a bummer, 'cause I'm about out of that powder, afaik, there's no more of it available. Maybe - just maybe - the new IMR4451 will meet or beat what I've seen from it out of these two rifles, and maybe it'll work better with the Hybrids than Data 86, N160, IMR4350 or RL17.

Oddly enough, I've had really good results with the Hybrids out of my 6 HAGAR AR15 spacegun at 600yds in XC HP matches. Am loading enough RL15 to give 2800fps out of 28" Krieger .236"bore 1-8tw bbl, with very little load development. I've got them jumping .020" here. One of my shooting friends is still having excellent luck with the hybrids out of his 28" 6 RAT upper at 600, even though he's got right around 3000rds through that bbl. So, no doubt, the Hybrid does work in some rifles - but, it's no 'magic bullet' either.

 

[essexboy]

I would just like to say what a fantastic thread this is, all good comments with no silly name calling or ranting etc
I've been shooting lapua 105's at long range 1k+ but it's always been nagging in the back of my mind that I'm loosing out in the bc dept? I decided to change to hybrids after all the initial rave reviews etc? I haven't shot them yet and after this thread I'm not sure I will. Due to the excellent points on here about the length of the hybrids I measured a few up for aol, then also some other bullets I have on the reloading bench, I measured 5 random of each type, I have missed off the 1.2 inch and just listed the remaining thousands
Hybrid 42 46 40 40
Lapua 54 53 53 53 54
107 smk 25 25 26 24 23
105 vld lot910 35 31 34 35 35
Those hybrids are a long way off the listed aol

Keep up the good work guys

Essexboy

 

[dkhunt14]

Another good bullet is the NEW Sierra 107. They now come pointed and my buddies Dasher is really shooting them. Since switching to them he has won an awful lot. He has some groups with 8 or 9 shots under the World Record. Like in the low 2 inch range at 1000. Guys that were in the pits and saw his targets starting calling me and asking what he is doing. I said they need to call him not me. He said all he did was switch bullets and load test. He also told me they weren't as picky about where they wanted to be or the load. Matt