Berger 105's VLD vs Hybrid

[gman88188]

I just got a new box (500) VLDs. I have been working with Hybrids and I know the VLDs are more stable in 1:8 twist per the Berger Site. The load I worked up for the Hybrids is 26 thousands off the lands my Savage F-Class prefers to jump them. I have found 30.1 grains of IMR 4895 to be my best load. I have tried for quite a while to find plain old match bullets and never can seem to find them.

My question is, has anybody found any difference in loads between them. I plan to shoot tomorrow (range closed today). I was thinking I would start with 26 thousandths jump and 29.8, 30.0 30.2 and 30.4 grains of IMR 4895. I have plenty of varget as well so if you have suggested load I am all ears. I plan to use the regular CCI primers, as I see little difference between the BR4s.

One thing I want to note, there is a lot of variation between bullets when I use my Hornady comparator touching the lands. I actually measured 10 of them and found variation in measuring the same bullet twice. I know, I know, plating, roundness, etc. I am planning to use a median average to determine a 26 off starting point.

Look forward to hearing from you. I will see what the tree tells me tomorrow. By the way I use 7 burners and 10 rounds per to determine my grouping which with VLD's at 200 Yards is 1/4 to 1/2 MOA depending on me. No I don't plan to shoot 200 yards I am interested in 300-1000 at our range you club activities for shoots to practice any further.

Thanks for the input.

Cheers.

 

[nosualc]

Common lore is that VLDs prefer to be jammed and hybrids prefer to be jumped. This is not law of course. You need to let your rifle tell you what it likes best with each load combination.

You didn't mention which cartridge you're using, although I suspect a 6BR.

Personally I'd start a little lower than you plan and work up. Maybe 28 grains.

-nosualc

 

[dkhunt14]

In my Dasher the 105 Hunting VLD loves it in about 10 to 15 in. I shoot Varget and BR4, Matt

 

[hogpatrol]

With regards to 6mm, 6.5mm, .270 & .224s, my best accuracy was always jammed. I start out with .010 in & work from there.

 

[gman88188]

Sorry 6mm Norma BR. I have found that my gun prefers to jump em in both Berger Hybrid Target 105s and SMK 107s. While I plan to try out different things if my starting assumptions don't pan out but based on my previous experience jamming them in this barrel just doesn't work out. As far as load, 29.5 was the original starting point however the node for 105s appears to be 30.1 of IMR 4895. I am willing to believe for starters that Berger 105s will shoot similarly no matter whether they are Hybrid Targets, VLD Targets, or BT match. Similarly does not equal the same. . The proof will be on the paper.

 

[dkhunt14]

That is not true with the Bergers. In fact the seating depth where they work is kind of opposite of what Berger hoped for or wanted. Are you sure you have the bullet Jammed? I have not seen a VLD not like it in the rifling. I have seen Hybrids want it both ways. Sometimes I wonder if the people really know where there bullet is. I always check by steelwooling and checking the marks. I also measure before and after to make sure I am not pushing the bullet. Try more tension. Matt

 

[brxbrad]

I've shot both and I cant help but notice conflicting opinions. I've found the VLD's like to jump. My BRX wants .030 and my 284 Win likes .015. In my guns, the Hybrids like to hang around .010 or jammed.
Here is what Berger says. Take the time to read this article wrote by Eric Stecker Master Bulletsmith. Great information.....

http://www.bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/

 

[gman88188]

Thank you that is a great article. I will try that the next go round. I think that some guns just prefer to jump vs jam. I have tested the hybrids extensively and the paper does not lie I got no dog in the fight it is simply fact. I appreciate very much useful information like this I think the journey is as much fun as the destination. Thanks

 

[Judd]

It's interesting and just about the time we think we have it figured out the next barrel will prove to you that you don't have a clue. I thought I had hybrids figured out they wanted to be jumped...anywhere from .010 to .031 and this new brx barrel wants it touching. Just when I thought I had it all figured out ;D

One thing I am confident about is....there is absolutely no absolutes in rifle tuning.

 

[dixieppc]

One thing I am confident about is....there is absolutely no absolutes in rifle tuning.

That's for damn sure! I bought 500, same lot, 105 hybrids for this new 6br build. They are showing real promise during what little time I have been able to devote to load work up. If they turn out to be real shooters I'll wish that I had bought a lot more, same lot, at that point because I might not be that lucky with the next lot.

 

[gman88188]

Range Report:
I like the VLDs over the Target Hybrids. Put 10 burners in a 1 inch diamond at 200 yards. Best group 30.2 grains, best vertical 30 grains. Somewhere between 29.9 30.2 is a pretty good node. Jumped all 26 thousandths. I will work on final coal after I determine the best powder load. I knew Berger said they would be a lot more stable with a 1:8 twist and I can confirm that's true. I think every rifle is an individual and this savage works best with a jump rather than a jam. I will let you know the next results this weekend. Cheers!

 

[brxbrad]

I've been shooting for a while now and have found out personally and through others there is only one thing you can count on. Count on the fact that every barrel shoots different, every lot of powder is different, every lot of bulltets are different and when and if you get it all tuned, you will become the deciding factor on how well it shoots.
By the way, I didn't write the article by Eric Stecker, I only shared it.......

2 cents.....

 

[gman88188]

Thank you for the article, I appreciate your sending it very much. I too have loaded for long time. I was surprised by the post by DKHunt14. If you do not conform to a prevalent point of view then then you don't know what you're doing. Fact is I did a wide spread with Hybrids from 30 jams to 30 jumps by 5 thousandths increments. I know exactly what this barrel does. What I like about the VLDs is there is a noticeable difference in the quality of the groups on the trees. I have keep all of my results on paper to refer to so it is easy to compare. I am going to find some BT Targets and compare. The Berger ballistics software on their website suggests that it would be even more stable for a 1:8 twist. I had less than a half inch vertical spread with 30 grains of IMR 4895 at 200 yards. He who expecth nothing shall not be disappointed! Craig

 

[johara1]

If you moved seating depth in .005 increments you could have missed the window. I jumped a 105 h from .060 jump to .015 in and found that it shot around .200 till i hit .002 in and it had a window from .008 to .012 it shot in the zeros. that set up shot 23 3" groups at 1000. Depends what you are looking for .2 any where…….. zeros you have to work and Matt is a 100 % right …….. jim

 

[lawrence97]

Was the .008 to .012 window jumping or jamming?

 

[liseo]

If you moved seating depth in .005 increments you could have missed the window. I jumped a 105 h from .060 jump to .015 in and found that it shot around .200 till i hit .002 in and it had a window from .008 to .012 it shot in the zeros. that set up shot 23 3" groups at 1000. Depends what you are looking for .2 any where…….. zeros you have to work and Matt is a 100 % right …….. jim

How much you recommend change to find the right depth?

Thanks

 

[johara1]

I found that .002 but i ruff it in first with big jumps. I go as low as .001 to find the window and set in the middle to allow for seating variations but now i have the handle on that, i can hold less than a .001 variation but you met have uniform neck tension……. jim

 

[johara1]

In, means from zero. the first thing i do is find zero if you don't you never know where you are. That zero is used to find throat advancement. Jam is term that varies and to me is meaningless. So in means from zero and jumped is out from zero……. jim

 

[gman88188]

I failed to mention that I also did .002 increments to .015 both in and out. Initially I tried at lands by .001 because I felt the old .002 to .003 off would be a good starting point. Somehow I magically ended up at .026 off on the Hybrids, which says I have looked much more than .005 increments. It was just a starting point to further develop a load.

 

[michaelnel]

Sheesh. You can burn up several hundred bucks worth of bullets trying to determine the seating depth.

I don't have the patience to get the 105 Hybrids to shoot. So far testing at least for me looks better with Lapua 105 Scenars. Maybe they just aren't as touchy. I think getting the 105 Hybrids to shoot is beyond my capabilities.

I'll try again when I get my new barrel.