Benefits of a tuner

[harro]

When working up a load for a Rifle with a Tuner should you find the best load without the Tuner installed and then start Tuning ?
Or if you work up the preferred load with it installed, what setting or position do you have it set to while doing the load development ?

 

[misser]

Tuners make a diff

LRPV, what the problem ?​

 

[MikeRu]

When working up a load for a Rifle with a Tuner should you find the best load without the Tuner installed and then start Tuning ?
Or if you work up the preferred load with it installed, what setting or position do you have it set to while doing the load development ?

If I have it right, Mike Ezell advises to install tuner, turn it all the way in, tune the load, then turn it out some (1/2 or 1 full turn) and start testing group/POI at short range like 100 yds, 3 rounds per setting.

 

[Rick300]

At my last match we had a tailwind that was giving some terrible vertical. Since I'm new to tuners, I have a picture on my phone of my tuner test that Mike Ezell tells his customers to do. I usually shoot on #8, but after looking at the picture I saw that #9 would produce a more horizontal group so I tried that. To my delight it greatly reduced the vertical and produced better scores and reduced groups.
I don't know the how or why, and usually not sure sure which way to turn it (yet), but the durn thing works. I am amazed at how even a 1/2 mark increment can make a difference.
BTW, I installed the tuner on a new barrel set at 0 and did my load development. Not sure if that's the right way or not, but it seems to work.

 

[CharlieNC]

I'll say this regarding wider tune windows. I do believe having a weight on the end makes a small difference, widening the window ever so slightly. But I've seen what the bbl looks like when fired on an o-scope and it's ugly. The areas at top and bottom of the sine wave are narrow, to put it mildly at best. So, while the distance between sweet spots certainly changes with frequency, the width of that little peak where we want bullet exit to happen is not wide at all. So, very generously and hypothetically speaking only, say we cut the frequency in half. That does not mean our tune window is twice as wide and even if it did, well, twice of a razor's edge is still pretty slim and that's kinda what we're up against here. So, I wouldn't hang my hat on that wider tune window but ever so slightly, yes, it's wider. I think, and my method of using a tuner, is a better way. I don't even pay much attention to how wide or narrow it is any more. I just move the tuner and it goes back to shooting. That's ME, but do what works for you. To me, THAT is the benefit of a tuner.

Just for a visual aide in what I'm saying, lets look at this pic. Looks to me like the top of the natural curve, where I prefer bullet exit to occur is at the peak around 1.75ms. Forget about all those other spike and all the other stuff going on and just use this for a mental image. See how narrow it is? Even if we tune elswhere, same thing again. Don't read too much into this. I'm just trying to make a point is all. Actually, the next peak "might" be better after looking at it for a second but still. See how there are big sweeping wave forms and little tiny ones. To see the big ones, imagine drawing a curved line through the middle of that entire picture, following the "sine". That's close to what I'll refer to as the natural frequency(among many at once) Problem is, I believe we are tuning to the little bitty spikes...Now, imagine a vertical line running thru the wave form at the highest point(about 1.75ms) in the pic for a second. Lets call that vert line "bullet exit." Now the good part...we shift that single little bitty wave form left or right with a tuner(phase shift). We shift the bullet exit with powder or other tuning means. See how and why both methods affect group shape and size similarly? One way speeds the bullet up and the other way speeds the bbl up but ideally, either method puts us on top of that same tiny little wave form.

I robbed this pic and it's just for reference here so lets not hash out details.

Based on my testing, this is the best way I know to explain what I believe is going on. We can agree or disagree but lets just not argue or turn this thread into a cluster. This is how I see it. You may see it differently and that's ok with me. Damn few have seen this in person and I have.. and watched it move the wave form when the tuner is adjusted as well as using calculated bullet exit superimposed over the actual wave form in a lab, so while I'm sure there is a lot more to learn myself, it's more than a theory or guess but again, I'm sure there is more for me to learn in time.
I'd like your thoughts @CharlieNC
But, it's not worth arguing over. Most people could care less how they work. They just wanna know how to use them to win more!

View attachment 1554626

Thanks for sharing an interesting result Mike. Several observations on this chart:
* There are clearly a few very long term cycles
* In addition the fast cycles on the order of 25khz might be real, difficult to say for sure, that reflect the energy propagation at the speed of sound along the length of the barrel

To put this chart into the context of based on what we see on the target :
* A ladder test clearly shows the point of impact can become flat or even drop as the charge weight increases, proving barrel harmonics are at play
* For large charge weight changes (5-10%) the barrel time only 0.15ms, with associated barrel vibration frequencies of 5-20khz. Again this is based on decifering the poi movement on the target.
* This suggests we are using the higher frequency movement on the chart you showed vs major movements in exit time, that is .05ms changes.

If there was no barrel harmonic movement, the point of impact goes up predictably with velocity. Because in reality the poi can become stable and even drop with increasing velocity means this is achieved when the barrel moving, not being stable. That means using the upswing of a high or low frequency cycle via exit timing which are only available as very minor changes.

 

[Longrange57]

At my last match we had a tailwind that was giving some terrible vertical. Since I'm new to tuners, I have a picture on my phone of my tuner test that Mike Ezell tells his customers to do. I usually shoot on #8, but after looking at the picture I saw that #9 would produce a more horizontal group so I tried that. To my delight it greatly reduced the vertical and produced better scores and reduced groups.
I don't know the how or why, and usually not sure sure which way to turn it (yet), but the durn thing works. I am amazed at how even a 1/2 mark increment can make a difference.
BTW, I installed the tuner on a new barrel set at 0 and did my load development. Not sure if that's the right way or not, but it seems to work.

Distance??

 

[Rick300]

Distance??

1K

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If I have it right, Mike Ezell advises to install tuner, turn it all the way in, tune the load, then turn it out some (1/2 or 1 full turn) and start testing group/POI at short range like 100 yds, 3 rounds per setting.

Close. I do nothing with it bottomed out. I start by turning it out 1/2-1 full turn, most people bring zero to the top within that range. I then adjust the nylon tipped set screws to set tension. I turn them in 1/4-3/8 of a turn after I feel them touch the top of the bbl threads. They are set at that point and do not require further adjustment. The tuner will be "firm" to turn at that point by hand only. Do NOT lock them solid! That's important.
I start load work up there, find my best load, then do the tuner test. One thing of note that helps read the target...Since you did load work up at 0 on the tuner, there's a good chance it'll be in or very close when you switch to the tuner test. So, I like to move the tuner IN 2 marks and start the test there rather than at zero. All further adjustment during the test are moving the tuner out, away from the receiver.
Logic being, I want to see the groups before and after a sweet spot and what if the tune changed before you started the test, fo whatever reason. Potentially, you just skipped what we know should be the first "in tune" setting. I think this is important to do. So, the test will actually start at 30, 31, then 0,1,2 etc...on my tuner, of course.

 

[tactserv]

I want to start a discussion here. This is not about how tuners work or how to use them. Specifically I would like to hear your opinions on how a tuner benefits your shooting. Do you think it gives a wider tune window? Do you think it stabilizes poi? Do you think it shoots smaller? Do think the barrel stays in tune longer? Do you think it gives a warning before going out of tune? Do you use it to keep the rifle in tune? ext. The reason I think this will be interesting is I have talked with a lot of guys that implement tuners, theres a wide range of answers here. Id like to see if theres a consensus. I have used them on and off for about 15 years. I cut barrels every week for them. Most people agree on how to use them for the most part. Most do not agree on the benefits. Guys at the top of their games have very different opinions here. So lets hear it. Might be good to include what discipline your in. Thanks

They eliminate vertical dispersion (stringing).
As I understand it, most benifit seen on rimfire rifles. When I got my new rimfire benchrest rifle, I did lot testing to find good ammo, then I started tuner tuning. I went through the long process (~150 rounds), and then repeated it from scratch and found the tuner settings for both test to be 1 number off. I am a believer. But, I saw a comment while reading up on how to find the best tuner setting. The person said to set it on 250 and shoot it. 300 rounds expended be me to find my number: 250 it was. YMMV

 

[Bill Norris]

When working up a load for a Rifle with a Tuner should you find the best load without the Tuner installed and then start Tuning ?
Or if you work up the preferred load with it installed, what setting or position do you have it set to while doing the load development ?

I think it's best to have it installed and setting on zero. Zero meaning at whatever point the manf. calls zero as it does differ from one manf. to the next.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think it's best to have it installed and setting on zero. Zero meaning at whatever point the manf. calls zero as it does differ from one manf. to the next.

Yeah, guys gotta keep in mind, it's impossible to time the zero to a bbl if someone else is threading the bbl for install. IOW, every number is just a reference point that really has no other meaning or value. You could start anywhere. IME, tune repeats over and over. My test(sine test) shows those intervals. I simply know them from lots of experience and leg work with mine. Knowing those intervals is important too.

 

[Straightshooter1]

When working up a load for a Rifle with a Tuner should you find the best load without the Tuner installed and then start Tuning ?
Or if you work up the preferred load with it installed, what setting or position do you have it set to while doing the load development ?

Keep in mind that any time you put something on the barrel, be it a tuner, brake or suppressor, the harmonics change due to that. Therefore, install the tuner first and simply develop a good load before playing with the tuner. Once you find a good load, you then can adjust the tuner to refine the load a little more.

Also, once you've found a good load before adjusting the tuner and then finding the best tuner setting, play with it by moving to various adjustments and note differences you might see on your target to get to know what the adjustments actually do for your particular set up. When you get to know your tuner, you then can make good decisions about what adjustment to make when you have conditions change and see changes on target.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Keep in mind that any time you put something on the barrel, be it a tuner, brake or suppressor, the harmonics change due to that. Therefore, install the tuner first and simply develop a good load before playing with the tuner. Once you find a good load, you then can adjust the tuner to refine the load a little more.

Also, once you've found a good load before adjusting the tuner and then finding the best tuner setting, play with it by moving to various adjustments and note differences you might see on your target to get to know what the adjustments actually do for your particular set up. When you get to know your tuner, you then can make good decisions about what adjustment to make when you have conditions change and see changes on target.

Well said

 

[Bill Norris]

Keep in mind that any time you put something on the barrel, be it a tuner, brake or suppressor, the harmonics change due to that. Therefore, install the tuner first and simply develop a good load before playing with the tuner. Once you find a good load, you then can adjust the tuner to refine the load a little more.

Also, once you've found a good load before adjusting the tuner and then finding the best tuner setting, play with it by moving to various adjustments and note differences you might see on your target to get to know what the adjustments actually do for your particular set up. When you get to know your tuner, you then can make good decisions about what adjustment to make when you have conditions change and see changes on target.

Good advise here. Particular set-ups do matter of course, but there is no substitute for spending time with adjusting the tuner in different atmospheric conditions to learn how the differences will affect the tune. This is one of the most over-looked areas with a new tuner owner and those atmospheric changes are the most critical defining changes one will encounter while using a tuner. Not saying they are wrong at all but this is the one area where some of the guys are saying turn the tuner this way or that way for different results that does not get mentioned nearly as much as needed. And by conditions we have to think about ALL the parameters of those conditions and not just temp. changes or simply one given aspect. It has been said by many that density altitude which is a combination of several other factors will play the bigger part of tune changes. I am still learning about all this as it is not an over-nighter to figure out.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Good advise here. Particular set-ups do matter of course, but there is no substitute for spending time with adjusting the tuner in different atmospheric conditions to learn how the differences will affect the tune. This is one of the most over-looked areas with a new tuner owner and those atmospheric changes are the most critical defining changes one will encounter while using a tuner. Not saying they are wrong at all but this is the one area where some of the guys are saying turn the tuner this way or that way for different results that does not get mentioned nearly as much as needed. And by conditions we have to think about ALL the parameters of those conditions and not just temp. changes or simply one given aspect. It has been said by many that density altitude which is a combination of several other factors will play the bigger part of tune changes. I am still learning about all this as it is not an over-nighter to figure out.

I could add a couple of caveats but overall, your post is too good and true to mess with. I'll just say...with my tuner, shoot my test...EXACTLY like it's drawn ans is marked. It's the shortest route I know of to likely the same place in the end. Just like this, down to making your own target like it. I look for specifics that no other format or variation shows me, like this test target. It's a tuner test to show the things I look for from the tuner so yes, at 100 yards, regardless of discipline...for now.

 

[Bill Norris]

I could add a couple of caveats but overall, your post is too good and true to mess with. I'll just say...with my tuner, shoot my test...EXACTLY like it's drawn ans is marked. It's the shortest route I know of to likely the same place in the end. Just like this, down to making your own target like it. I look for specifics that no other format or variation shows me, like this test target. It's a tuner test to show the things I look for from the tuner so yes, at 100 yards, regardless of discipline...for now.

Yea Mike that format works really well with my testing. I test every developed load in this manner.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Well, this is a how to use a tuner thread after all lol. Thats good, seems like guys are getting something out of it.

 

[Acyr]

Well, this is a how to use a tuner thread after all lol. Thats good, seems like guys are getting something out of it.

Yes 5 pages and it's still on the rails!

 

[Mulligan]

Ill ad that I am specifically talking well build accurate rifles here. Not factory stuff. Not rimfire either, as thats a little different subject.
So far I think I have read these benefits

keep the rifle in tune over temp change and barrel wear
shrink the groups over their best tune
adjust group shape
expedite the tuning process
more resistant to temp changes

Pretty early into this discussion. Its tracking with my personal discussions over the years. Very wide range of opinions.

Bringing the rig back into tune when you slip out is the value for me.

I am weird in many ways and I drive Mike nuts with the way I use tuners.
But, I still tune (powder, seating, neck tension, whatever it takes) prior to each match. Then use the tuner to keep me there as the environment tosses me curveballs and a few knuckleballs.

CW

Edit,
I do all of my tuning and testing at the yardage (distance) I will be competing at. Including tuner testing. I expect results at 600 or 1000 so that is where I tune and test. I know lots of guys tune and test at 100, I am far from capable of doing that...... just not that talented.

CW

 

[CA_Shooter]

Well, this is a how to use a tuner thread after all lol. Thats good, seems like guys are getting something out of it.

It doesn't quite seem like your question has been answered