Benefits of a tuner

[Jerry Wick]

My method of finding the best base tuner setting is based very much on what I learned about reading group shapes over the years, before we had tuners in centerfire..or most of us. The tuner test I use is just a methodical approach that shows you basically the same group shapes as would happen if you break down powder charge increments to quantities equal to one mark on my tuner and how far between sweet spots. The same test would do the same thing with powder charge increments. The trick is knowing increment values relative to group shape, be that say, one mark at a time or 3 tenths of powder at a time...just an example but that's very close to right if we were only talking a 6ppc and n133.
Just imagine charting out 15 three shot groups, changing powder charge .3 at a time. Essentially the same. I'm just moving a tuner a mark at a time instead of my powder measure and watching what the test shows.

Mike, are you saying that you have a "pet" load for, say a PPC for example, that you always use and you simply tune the rifle strictly with the tuner for that load?

Where does seating depth come in to the tune? Get the best tune possible with the pet load with the tuner and then fine tune with seating depth? Or?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike, are you saying that you have a "pet" load for, say a PPC for example, that you always use and you simply tune the rifle strictly with the tuner for that load?

Where does seating depth come in to the tune? Get the best tune possible with the pet load with the tuner and then fine tune with seating depth? Or?

Jerry, go back and read post 48. I think it's very interesting. It is NOT my suggested method but it can work and I know several others that do it that way. Idea being, try their known load, move the tuner to get it as good as it will do and if it's not shooting quite well enough, then tweak the load. Yes, I've done it a lot too but I know my equipment and I know what a competive load in SR looks like. Still, I may be leaving something on the table when I do it that way.

Bottom line, still gotta do load work up or you simply can't know if the load is giving you all the gun has to offer, no matter how well the tuner is set. A tuner can give you whatever potential a load has but it may or may not be the best load for your gun. As for seating depth...others will disagree and it may not work for them but I stopped chasing the lands a long time ago with a tuner. I establish my best seating depth during my initial load development stage. Maybe it loses an edge and maybe not but I can say this way works perty dang good for me so far. Some bbls may be different but I mean...I've been doing it this way since about 2010. I've gone through more bbls since then than I care to think about like this. If ya feel like it's lost the edge and ya can't get it back within just a few marks on the tuner, by all means, re-visit the load and/or seating depth, especially if you've changed even lots of bullets. Most customs are pretty close but even Bergers can vary...I've seen .040 just in lot changes with the same bullet, so yes, that might be reason enough to need to tweak it a bit.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No one should take anything I've said as saying they are doing it wrong. If you have a way that gives you reliable and predictable results...don't change a thing. If you know what to do on the fly to fix your state of tune, keep doing it. If you struggle with that, maybe you should try a different and maybe more methodical approach. I tell people MY method and it absolutely works for me. Much of the tuner test reason for existence is I saw and still do see people grasping at straws, randomly moving tuners all over the place. My test and my method are just that, a method to eliminate all that crap. It's really very easy.

 

[Longrange57]

Thanks Alex for putting up this thread. I'm looking for answers myself. Most of my problem with tuners has been a laziness on my part. I know many top level shooters that use them and make it work. Doing mostly long range 500-1800 yards, maybe something on here will peak my interest again. Mike Ezell has certainly guided lots of folks I know in the right direction.

 

[David Milisock]

Life is like a box of tuners, you never know what you're going to get. Forrest Gump.

Being a stupid man I revert to smarter data. ASSUMING that you've got your act together, good rifle, repeatable precision loading. A tuner has to work because of the ability to affect the natural resonance of the barrel. Nicola Tesla expounded that theory and he was much smarter than me.

In plain words you change the barrels vibration to enhance the ballistics. The barrel vibrates and is in a more stable state upon the bullets exit would be one example.

 

[JFrank]

That’s my understanding as well.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'll say this regarding wider tune windows. I do believe having a weight on the end makes a small difference, widening the window ever so slightly. But I've seen what the bbl looks like when fired on an o-scope and it's ugly. The areas at top and bottom of the sine wave are narrow, to put it mildly at best. So, while the distance between sweet spots certainly changes with frequency, the width of that little peak where we want bullet exit to happen is not wide at all. So, very generously and hypothetically speaking only, say we cut the frequency in half. That does not mean our tune window is twice as wide and even if it did, well, twice of a razor's edge is still pretty slim and that's kinda what we're up against here. So, I wouldn't hang my hat on that wider tune window but ever so slightly, yes, it's wider. I think, and my method of using a tuner, is a better way. I don't even pay much attention to how wide or narrow it is any more. I just move the tuner and it goes back to shooting. That's ME, but do what works for you. To me, THAT is the benefit of a tuner.

Just for a visual aide in what I'm saying, lets look at this pic. Looks to me like the top of the natural curve, where I prefer bullet exit to occur is at the peak around 1.75ms. Forget about all those other spike and all the other stuff going on and just use this for a mental image. See how narrow it is? Even if we tune elswhere, same thing again. Don't read too much into this. I'm just trying to make a point is all. Actually, the next peak "might" be better after looking at it for a second but still. See how there are big sweeping wave forms and little tiny ones. To see the big ones, imagine drawing a curved line through the middle of that entire picture, following the "sine". That's close to what I'll refer to as the natural frequency(among many at once) Problem is, I believe we are tuning to the little bitty spikes...Now, imagine a vertical line running thru the wave form at the highest point(about 1.75ms) in the pic for a second. Lets call that vert line "bullet exit." Now the good part...we shift that single little bitty wave form left or right with a tuner(phase shift). We shift the bullet exit with powder or other tuning means. See how and why both methods affect group shape and size similarly? One way speeds the bullet up and the other way speeds the bbl up but ideally, either method puts us on top of that same tiny little wave form.

I robbed this pic and it's just for reference here so lets not hash out details.

Based on my testing, this is the best way I know to explain what I believe is going on. We can agree or disagree but lets just not argue or turn this thread into a cluster. This is how I see it. You may see it differently and that's ok with me. Damn few have seen this in person and I have.. and watched it move the wave form when the tuner is adjusted as well as using calculated bullet exit superimposed over the actual wave form in a lab, so while I'm sure there is a lot more to learn myself, it's more than a theory or guess but again, I'm sure there is more for me to learn in time.
I'd like your thoughts @CharlieNC
But, it's not worth arguing over. Most people could care less how they work. They just wanna know how to use them to win more!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Thanks Alex for putting up this thread. I'm looking for answers myself. Most of my problem with tuners has been a laziness on my part. I know many top level shooters that use them and make it work. Doing mostly long range 500-1800 yards, maybe something on here will peak my interest again. Mike Ezell has certainly guided lots of folks I know in the right direction.

I talk to a lot of shooters and I find it interesting the wide range of ideas they have on what benefits they are getting. Im talking beyond the obvious use of tuning with the tuner. Theres a lot of ideas out there.

 

[jcline]

If you go to a match preloaded like most score shooters do, your gun will not be in tune at every range to which you travel. The only advice I can give on a tuner is, IF YOU ARE SCARED TO MAKE AN ADJUSTMENT IN A BIG MATCH IF AND WHEN YOUR GUN GETS OUT OF TUNE, A TUNER ISN’T FOR YOU.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If you go to a match preloaded like most score shooters do, your gun will not be in tune at every range to which you travel. The only advice I can give on a tuner is, IF YOU ARE SCARED TO MAKE AN ADJUSTMENT IN A BIG MATCH IF AND WHEN YOUR GUN GETS OUT OF TUNE, A TUNER ISN’T FOR YOU.

I get your point but there has been a HOF'er or two that never moved their tuner. The only thing to be afraid of is not knowing what to do. Well, if the gun is out of tune, I guess ya have a couple of choices. One is living with it. One is changing the load and one is to move the dang tuner! Lol! It'll go right back where it was so I don't understand people being afraid of moving it....You're out of tune! The key is knowing how much and which way. The biggest difference for those guys that never move the tuner but keep up with tune by powder charge is...one of those ways...they are comfortable with their knowledge/ability of doing and doing well.

 

[jcline]

I get your point but there has been a HOF'er or two that never moved their tuner. The only thing to be afraid of is not knowing what to do. Well, if the gun is out of tune, I guess ya have a couple of choices. One is living with it. One is changing the load and one is to move the dang tuner! Lol! It'll go right back where it was so I don't understand people being afraid of moving it....You're out of tune! The key is knowing how much and which way. The biggest difference for those guys that never move the tuner but keep up with tune by powder charge is...one of those ways...they are comfortable with their knowledge/ability of doing and doing well.

The key word in my statement is PRELOADED. That means you have all your reloading stuff at your house with no option to change powder charges. We are now down to 2 options. Turn it and get it back in tune or leave it alone and struggle.

 

[Longrange57]

Ok, just my 2 cents! Talking about moving the tuner...don't move the tuner, etc. In the short game with little wind, I have also experienced a move on target and half the time may have been right in my assessment. However, after dozens and dozens of aggs with and without tuner, I very seldom saw much of a difference. I will concede that someone else could have probably done better than me with tuning the rifle.
Now comes the tricky part....longer ranges! I've done about as much shooting from 500-1800 as anyone. Even at 500-700 yds in West Texas, New Mexico, and other wideopen places, you absolutely can't get around the 10-20 and even 30 mph winds, not counting wind gusts. It is hard for me to believe that a tuner is going to help. How do you know its the gun thats out of tune or the wind? In certain disciplines, you shoot long strings and in the summer the barrel gets much hotter than 5 shot strings where most tuners are used. The variables are huge in determining whether to run a tuner or not and I'm primarily speaking of long range. Short range I can see the benefit. I will promise you the guys who brag about the little groups (especially less than 1/3 moa) beyond 500 yards need to go shooting with me and my compadres. We have very capable shooters and tuners are the last thing on their minds. But.....I'm listening!

 

[B Nettesheim]

Wider tune window, not really
Stabilized poi, I would have to test an untimed barrel with a tuner and compare to a timed one
Shoots smaller, yes if it’s left alone till after every bit of tuning is done first, I explain to customers they are considered “fine tuners”
Keeping in tune yes

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Ok, just my 2 cents! Talking about moving the tuner...don't move the tuner, etc. In the short game with little wind, I have also experienced a move on target and half the time may have been right in my assessment. However, after dozens and dozens of aggs with and without tuner, I very seldom saw much of a difference. I will concede that someone else could have probably done better than me with tuning the rifle.
Now comes the tricky part....longer ranges! I've done about as much shooting from 500-1800 as anyone. Even at 500-700 yds in West Texas, New Mexico, and other wideopen places, you absolutely can't get around the 10-20 and even 30 mph winds, not counting wind gusts. It is hard for me to believe that a tuner is going to help. How do you know its the gun thats out of tune or the wind? In certain disciplines, you shoot long strings and in the summer the barrel gets much hotter than 5 shot strings where most tuners are used. The variables are huge in determining whether to run a tuner or not and I'm primarily speaking of long range. Short range I can see the benefit. I will promise you the guys who brag about the little groups (especially less than 1/3 moa) beyond 500 yards need to go shooting with me and my compadres. We have very capable shooters and tuners are the last thing on their minds. But.....I'm listening!

I don't see anyone claiming tuners are gonna trump a missed condition but maybe I missed it. I'd rather deal with wind with a well tuned rifle though.

 

[LVLAaron]

Someone mention positive compensation.

 

[LVLAaron]

Come on meow

 

[JFrank]

Someone mention positive compensation.

That’s the objective isn’t it~ OBT

 

[noahburleson1]

I am pretty new to reloading and load development but I believe they help to some degree. I’ve been shooting f class club matches for about 4 months now with my 6.5x47 lapua. Defiance deviant tactical (repeater) action, McMillan a5 stock, 28” Bartlein heavy varmit, and vortex golden eagle. (I have some actual f class rifles coming soon.) This is the most recent tuner test I ran at 300 yards. I liked setting 15 in the beginning of the test but it ended up having more vertical than I liked in my 10rd verification group. I ended up turning the tuner to setting 35 because the tune seemed a lot wider even though the groups were bigger than setting 10. There was also about a 1-1/2 MOA condition in the middle of my test so not ideal conditions to test in. The next day I shot a 600yd match and shot my second highest score so far which is not great by any means but I’m not too disappointed in it. 300yd targets is the tuner test and 600yd targets is the match the next day.

 

[FeMan]

I put tuners on all my competition rifles. I do not use them to tune, but once I get a rifle tuned up I’ll shoot either side of my initial tune mark a few clicks each way and record the group changes. I store a picture of that master target with me. There was one occasion with a Dasher that the post tune grouping actually improved even more with a slight tweak. Perhaps I could have wrung that out with more testing?

I have actually needed the tuners and been grateful for them in two occasions. Both were shooting ammo loaded for different conditions and having to use it for matches. Both times at practice I could see I had dropped out of tune and was able to bring my preloaded ammo back in with a tuner adjustment.

I think of mine like a parachute. I always have one and don’t often use it, but when I need it I’m glad it’s there.

 

[JLT]

I'll say this regarding wider tune windows. I do believe having a weight on the end makes a small difference, widening the window ever so slightly. But I've seen what the bbl looks like when fired on an o-scope and it's ugly. The areas at top and bottom of the sine wave are narrow, to put it mildly at best. So, while the distance between sweet spots certainly changes with frequency, the width of that little peak where we want bullet exit to happen is not wide at all. So, very generously and hypothetically speaking only, say we cut the frequency in half. That does not mean our tune window is twice as wide and even if it did, well, twice of a razor's edge is still pretty slim and that's kinda what we're up against here. So, I wouldn't hang my hat on that wider tune window but ever so slightly, yes, it's wider. I think, and my method of using a tuner, is a better way. I don't even pay much attention to how wide or narrow it is any more. I just move the tuner and it goes back to shooting. That's ME, but do what works for you. To me, THAT is the benefit of a tuner.

Just for a visual aide in what I'm saying, lets look at this pic. Looks to me like the top of the natural curve, where I prefer bullet exit to occur is at the peak around 1.75ms. Forget about all those other spike and all the other stuff going on and just use this for a mental image. See how narrow it is? Even if we tune elswhere, same thing again. Don't read too much into this. I'm just trying to make a point is all. Actually, the next peak "might" be better after looking at it for a second but still. See how there are big sweeping wave forms and little tiny ones. To see the big ones, imagine drawing a curved line through the middle of that entire picture, following the "sine". That's close to what I'll refer to as the natural frequency(among many at once) Problem is, I believe we are tuning to the little bitty spikes...Now, imagine a vertical line running thru the wave form at the highest point(about 1.75ms) in the pic for a second. Lets call that vert line "bullet exit." Now the good part...we shift that single little bitty wave form left or right with a tuner(phase shift). We shift the bullet exit with powder or other tuning means. See how and why both methods affect group shape and size similarly? One way speeds the bullet up and the other way speeds the bbl up but ideally, either method puts us on top of that same tiny little wave form.

I robbed this pic and it's just for reference here so lets not hash out details.

Based on my testing, this is the best way I know to explain what I believe is going on. We can agree or disagree but lets just not argue or turn this thread into a cluster. This is how I see it. You may see it differently and that's ok with me. Damn few have seen this in person and I have.. and watched it move the wave form when the tuner is adjusted as well as using calculated bullet exit superimposed over the actual wave form in a lab, so while I'm sure there is a lot more to learn myself, it's more than a theory or guess but again, I'm sure there is more for me to learn in time.
I'd like your thoughts @CharlieNC
But, it's not worth arguing over. Most people could care less how they work. They just wanna know how to use them to win more!

View attachment 1554626

Mike, do you have an overlay of the computational (estimated) and measured results? I would love to see that data.