Benchrest Popularity and Growth

[bichettereds]

IBS score allows 10.5 and 13.5lb rifles. Most shoot a 13.5 and the 10.5s are still allowed and records are counted. Not sure why this can't be done in group too. Just let them shoot at the same time, side by side. Records wouldn't have to be addressed at all. Shoot a record w/ a 10.5lb gun...you still just set a record.

I’m sure you’re aware but for others who may not be, in short range group (IBS and NBRSA) you can, and most do, use a LV 10.5lb in both classes. You just can’t use a HV 13.5lb in the LV class.

So if a new shooter came along and was interested in group shooting I’d recommend a LV gun and they could shoot sporter, LV and HV in IBS and NBRSA group, UBR, and IBS and NBRSA score (probably not optimal on the latter two). Seems like the most flexible rig there and still optimal in group and UBR. No? No need to change the rules or buy a bunch of rifles.

 

[Will Henry]

I’m sure you’re aware but for others who may not be, in short range group (IBS and NBRSA) you can, and most do, use a LV 10.5lb in both classes. You just can’t use a HV 13.5lb in the LV class.

So if a new shooter came along and was interested in group shooting I’d recommend a LV gun and they could shoot sporter, LV and HV in IBS and NBRSA group, UBR, and IBS and NBRSA score (probably not optimal on the latter two). Seems like the most flexible rig there and still optimal in group and UBR. No? No need to change the rules or buy a bunch of rifles.

And, if you put a longer, fast twist barrel on that thing, and change scope and mount, you can do OK in long range BR and "F" class too. For "F", you might want a raised comb. WH

 

[JoeDuke]

Joe, I've got a second one. The '-.004' on the one is the pic is the difference in die settings from one to the other. Replacing the shell holder clip on them brought the neck run out way down. But honestly, I haven't seen any 'on target' improvement from .0025 to .0005 T.I.R., though. I believe that plenty-o neck tension/hard jam/aggressive powder compaction trumps (pun intended) a bit of extra T.I.R. on a good .30.

Hope all is well at the Duke Ranch, sir. -Al

All is well at home I hope as well. Sandy and I are in New England to do some leaf peeping. I just might shoot a little IBS score as well.

 

[Evan]

I have frequently wondered if it would be interesting to have all classes shoot at once, and shoot more targets for a match. In LR, you frequently have many relays and switching between LG and HG and each class only gets 2 targets. That’s fine if you have multiple rifles or campaign one LG rifle in both classes, but there is no way to get more targets with just a HG, Tactical, or Unlimited if it were introduced. Thats a little bit of a disincentive to go for anything but a LG. If everyone shot 4 or 6 targets together for the match, regardless of rifle type, and awards and records were dolled out by class after, a new shooter could choose any class to participate in, have the same opportunities to shoot, and have a 1 to 1 comparison with everyone else on the line from any class in the same relay. Downside is you have to choose one rifle for the whole match and all classes might need to uniform to 5 or 10 shots per target for the match.

I have frequently thought about trying SR, but I don’t have anything that would qualify except a 30-06 rem 700 hunting rifle for LV/HV, and I could use my LR rifles for Unlimited. I’m not entirely sure that’s true though. The rules are a hurdle I need to figure out after finding an event to attend.

Then the calculus of gas, event fee, and quantity of target time come into play. How many folks look at a LR event (since that’s what I know), see that they get 2 - 5 shot targets and 2 - 10 shot targets totaling approximately 1 hour on the bench and the rest of the ~6 hour day is spent working the pits or hustling back and forth, and they say “I don’t know if that sounds very fun. Maybe I’ll go to the range with a couple buddies for a couple hours and shoot as much as I like then go home and have the rest of the day with my family”

 

[jackieschmidt]

I’m sure you’re aware but for others who may not be, in short range group (IBS and NBRSA) you can, and most do, use a LV 10.5lb in both classes. You just can’t use a HV 13.5lb in the LV class.

So if a new shooter came along and was interested in group shooting I’d recommend a LV gun and they could shoot sporter, LV and HV in IBS and NBRSA group, UBR, and IBS and NBRSA score (probably not optimal on the latter two). Seems like the most flexible rig there and still optimal in group and UBR. No? No need to change the rules or buy a bunch of rifles.

I might be wrong on this but I would bet that just about every Bag Gun record held in the NBRSA, (LV, Sporter, and HV), was in fact shot with a legal 10.5 pound LV Rifle.

People would also be surprised how many top shooter don’t even bother with a HV. They know a good shooting LV will do the deed.

As for the Sporter Rules. I think history has shown it is an idea that simply did not work, since nobody takes advantage of the so called “relaxed rules”.

Everybody simply shoots their LV.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I might be wrong on this but I would bet that just about every Bag Gun record held in the NBRSA, (LV, Sporter, and HV), was in fact shot with a legal 10.5 pound LV Rifle.

People would also be surprised how many top shooter don’t even bother with a HV. They know a good shooting LV will doo the deed.

As for the Sporter Rules. I think history has shown it is a dumb idea, since nobody takes advantage of the so called “relaxed rules”.

Everybody simply shoots their LV.

So why not allow heavier guns? I've just always thought that rule alienates a lot of potential score shooters(typically 13.5lb) from shooting group...re bbl to a different cal or not. We all want more shooters but we don't wanna change the rules that would make it easier for them to compete! There are literally 3 whole orgs out there, full of 13.5lb rifles that can't shoot group because of that rule. Unless they wanna travel miles to go shoot one class and not be able to contend for the grand, of course.

 

[jackieschmidt]

So why not allow heavier guns? I've just always thought that rule alienates a lot of potential score shooters(typically 13.5lb) from shooting group...re bbl to a different cal or not. We all want more shooters but we don't wanna change the rules that would make it easier for them to compete! There are literally 3 whole orgs out there, full of 13.5lb rifles that can't shoot group because of that rule. Unless they wanna travel miles to go shoot one class and not be able to contend for the grand, of course.

I can tell you this. Nothing is going to change.

At this years Score Nationals there was a proposal to add about 1/2 pound to the HBR guns. The idea was that since the old Weaver, Leupold, and Burris 6X Scopes that everybody used for years were no longer made, there really wasn’t any to be had. These old scopes were ridiculously light, around 15 ounces.

The idea was allow variables that could be taped on 6x. But most are considerably heavier, putting existing rifles over the 10 pound limit.

The proposal was overwhelmingly defeated.

Since I do not shoot HBR, I do not have a dog in that fight. But it shows that change does not come easy.

 

[R.Morehouse]

The come one, come all approach will definitely get more shooters on the line. If the weight were 17lb you would get a whole bunch of LR guys joining in on the fun as well and many might even spin on a PPC barrel for the day.

Regards
Rick

 

[Evan]

The come one, come all approach will definitely get more shooters on the line. If the weight were 17lb you would get a whole bunch of LR guys joining in on the fun as well and many might even spin on a PPC barrel for the day.

Regards
Rick

Yeah, a barrel is no biggie. A whole new platform with a different stock that requires different bags front and rear is a big bite.

 

[Fuj]

The come one, come all approach will definitely get more shooters on the line. If the weight were 17lb you would get a whole bunch of LR guys joining in on the fun as well and many might even spin on a PPC barrel for the day.

Regards
Rick

Anderson Creek, here in Pa. went to a mixed weight format just a
couple of years ago. They just have Custom and Factory class. They
also went to a 25 lb limit. Shooters have just about doubled. Some
top shooters are always there. You shoot for bragging rights which
nobody really does, and some cash. and a great looking sticker for
placing. Plus some of the most awesome chili is hot, and available
all day long......Take note that Jim Cline's Tack Driver format lets up
to 22 lbs, but look who really is winning ?? it's generally the lighter
gun. The place is standing room only with a wait list. Jeremiah Keefe
borrowed the format from Jim Cline, and Pa-TDL is going gang busters

With the Tack Driver match's, Let me add that the VBR match's held at
Ridgway Pa. allow for up to a 17lb gun. and they have a 12lb class. Again
top shooters and quite a few shoot Williamsport. They run 32 bench's
and generally have 100 shooters at each match with a 2 day champion-
ship......Let me be so bold to say that it's the shooter formats that require
the lighter guns, are the real problem. They are so entrenched with records
and rule books thicker then the bible, the following is getting smaller and
smaller......UBR got it right having a custom class, but also an "Unlimited"
class. It was this unlimited class that let me get my start once I left pistol
competition......When you read that BR is is slowing or losing popularity,
look to a specific format as being the problem.

Off the soap box......

 

[AlNyhus]

Having a 17 lb class in NBRSA and IBS Score Shooting would seem to be a no brainer. Everything is in place for it to happen. The guns and gear are there, the shooters are there...just provide them another opportunity.

Make it a seperate class with it's own seperate National Records and National Championship. Call it the Cruiser Class which would be a nod to the sports earlier days of very heavy bag guns.

All we have to do is look around to see how successful the venues are that allow this type of gun.

 

[Leeinmichigan]

I might be wrong on this but I would bet that just about every Bag Gun record held in the NBRSA, (LV, Sporter, and HV), was in fact shot with a legal 10.5 pound LV Rifle.

Everybody simply shoots their LV.

I really enjoy shooting my HV rifle, and shoot it all the time in that class. It’s much more forgiving on bag handling. I shot mine when I broke Boyer’s 30 year old IBS 3-Gun record at the 2022 Group Nationals (with my 0.1956 agg). Nevertheless, you are right that most of the top shooters don’t shoot their HV rifles, if their LV appears to be better.

 

[Will Henry]

Here's some more nostalgic reminiscing. When I started out, except for my home range in Clearwater, it was necessary to travel. In fact, the closest alternative was an eight hour drive. This was the same for everyone. Consequently, it was not uncommon to try and cram as much shooting into the weekend as possible, so as to make the trip worthwhile. At the Namaka range in Alberta, Al Mirdoch would put on matches where we shot five classes (Hunter, for group or score, Sporter, LV, HV, and unlimited). I didn't usually shoot Unlimited, so I had more time to reload. These matches were truly a marathon and you were pretty drained at the end of two days. We never shot more than four classes at Clearwater, but you still got lots of shooting in.
We used to hold a match in early October where we shot three classes. Attendance was generally pretty good and we might have as many as three relays. In October, in Clearwater, B.C., the days are starting to get pretty short, so we started shooting early and it was still often pretty dark when the last shot was fired. The bullet holes were getting hard to see through a 24x scope. One guy was using a 40X Seibert conversion and was sniveling pretty loudly.
Anyway, the point of all of this is just to point out that it was common at some venues to provide shooters with the opportunity to get all the shooting they wanted and then some.
Things have changed now. The travel is much the same, but the shooting has evolved into more of a quality over quantity sort of thing and that's mostly good. When it comes to drawing more shooters to any match, the shooters have to be attracted to the format. If the match consists of firing five shot groups and that is attractive to the shooter, he'll build his rifle to fit within the rules so that he can shoot that format. If he builds a rifle which weighs 13 pounds so he can't shoot in the 10 1/2 pound class, he won't shoot that class, or he will make a lighter rifle. Or, he'll complain because he can't shoot his heavy gun in the light gun class. This is just some people's nature.
I like building rifles. I've built hunting rifles, prone rifles, 3 position rifles, biathalon rifles, "F" class guns, Hunter class and varmint class BR rifles, and blackpowder rifles. Sometimes I build a rifle just because I can and sometimes, I'll compete with a rifle, even though I know it's not ideal, just for fun (like my 303 British "F" class gun). I've been doing it for fifty years. It is my fervent belief that the short range benchrest rifle provides the template for success at any format which includes shooting from a rest. I don't believe the rifle has to be super expensive, and I don't believe the rests and other accessories have to be either. The attitude of the shooter and attention to the things that matter are way more important. WH

 

[rayporter]

Can't disagree with more targets but doesn't that equate to another day as well? At least at some matches? That has always been part of my point regarding participation in sr br group vs score. It takes a lot longer to hold group matches vs score and they require a moving backer system. The prior makes it tough on clubs and on bringing in younger shooters with jobs and a family. The latter really only affects the clubs but is an added expense and takes time to move between yardages. But your point is valid, no doubt.

by the same token i am not driving 7 hours to shoot and turn around and go home.

st louis is over five hours for me and that is close

 

[rayporter]

I might be wrong on this but I would bet that just about every Bag Gun record held in the NBRSA, (LV, Sporter, and HV), was in fact shot with a legal 10.5 pound LV Rifle.

People would also be surprised how many top shooter don’t even bother with a HV. They know a good shooting LV will do the deed.

As for the Sporter Rules. I think history has shown it is an idea that simply did not work, since nobody takes advantage of the so called “relaxed rules”.

Everybody simply shoots their LV.

with a 10.5 wt what are you going to change [ if you wanted to]

 

[nakneker]

What holds people back? Money, time, distance, mentors and social stigma. Young people that didn’t grow up in a home that enjoyed hunting or the shooting sports by and large have a negative stigma with anything gun related. When I was young we shot 22s in the 6th grade, had a merit badge for marksmanship, shot guns at family outings (still do of course) etc. I believe a lot of young people would really enjoy the sport if they let the stigma go. Then you have budget, time, distance and mentors, once a person actually gets to a shoot they are probably gonna find a lot of shooters who will help, even let them try their rifle and give them pointers. It can be a hard sport to enjoy at any age given the aspects of it but it certainly has a die hard following, seems like short range benchrest guys and gals share a mad scientist gene…. Or addict, lol.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

by the same token i am not driving 7 hours to shoot and turn around and go home.

st louis is over five hours for me and that is close

Yeah, I get that side too. In UBR, most matches are two yardage events with 4 classes all run simultaneously. 48 record shots total for each gun you shoot but most people will fire around 140-150 including sighters and warm up periods. Scores are kept up with for you in your respective class(s). Several people will shoot two classes, giving them more shooting, if they choose. You could shoot the same rifle in custom and unlimited as long as it meets custom class rules, or 2 different rifles. Quite a bit of shooting for a day if you want it.
The UBR Modified class is a budget way to get into br. You can often pick up an older rem actioned br rifle for under a grand$$ and get started with it in that class as opposed to a well....Bruno's has new builds on his site for $6500 now, for a new Custom class rifle. So, big difference right there. I'm not telling orgs to change anything. It's just that we want more attendance and are at times our own worst enemy in getting that. UBR has grown a good bit from its inception in 2011. In this economy, it's holding steady, which is a good thing, imho. As with anything, there's room for improvement but I do like the format and the simplicity of the rules. Pretty much, if you wanna shoot, it has a class for ya and is a ton of fun. Unlimited is a class where you might see a full blown rail gun or you can shoot a 10.5lb rifle in it too. I don't consider a rail as a big advantage at all in score shooting, as it requires a lot more movement from bull to bull vs group. I like UL as it gives room to experiment with just about anything. 30 cal or less is about it for rules in UL. Custom is still the biggest class and usually produces the highest scores, but not always. I say that just to show that the extra gun weight and relaxed rules don't equate to bigger scores is all. To me, proximity is the biggest factor of them all to potential new shooters.
They often think we are crazy to drive for several hours to shoot a gun and the truth is...they're probably right about that. Lol! Lots of factors play into making matches available so I think the easier it can be for clubs to hold them, the better, overall. Like it or not, we have to compete with other disciplines for range time at most all clubs, so 1 day matches are a big factor there. There's also the issue of match directors and people to help run matches. Same applies. It just makes a lot of sense to make it easier for them. Without ranges and people to run the matches...there goes the proximity to more potential shooters.
Oh, and then there is factory class..

 

[jackieschmidt]

with a 10.5 wt what are you going to change [ if you wanted to]

Ray, they did away with that caliber restriction, the barrel taper rule and stock rule. One Stockmaker even came out with a stock that you could add a wider forearm attachment and butt stock piece to do away with the taper.too to help stabilize the rifle
It all looked good on paper, until it dawned on you you had to now lug around a wider rest top, a different rear bag, and still keep the rifle at 10.5 pounds.

I did take a survey at the last Nationals I attended in Phoenix. When Sporter Class came up in the program, I could not find one shooter who had built a Rifle to take advantage of these new relaxed rules.

Everybody was shooting what amounted to a legal LV rifle. Probably the same one they shot or were going to shoot in LV.

Until this “new” Sporter thing was voted in, the “go to Rifle” for the majority of competitors was their Sporter in 6PPC. The only thing between it and a LV was the Sporter had to be at last 23 caliber. Of course, the 6PPC took care of that.

 

[Nature Boy]

I shoot F Class, which has the same “negative growth” issues that plague other shooting sports.

As the imminent luminary and philosopher Whitney Houston said in song, “I believe the children are our future”

To that end, I brought my kids to a match and they ended up really enjoying it. My daughter shot my .308 and my son shot a Savage .223 in F/TR. They’re both competitive by nature and get satisfaction beating each other, but more so their old man. My daughter also brought her boyfriend. He even invested in a custom rig and reloading equipment. Unfortunately he got tired of her kicking his ass and quit going. They broke up soon after

They’re both out of the house now, daughter graduated college and son still going, so they shoot infrequently. They have their own interests and priorities but will still ask to go shoot a match every now and then when they’re back home.



There has to be an infusion of youth or these sports are in a death spiral, both figuratively and literally. It can’t just be us old farts bringing their old fart friends. That’s just a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

 

[jelenko]

So, my thoughts.
For some reason, the disciplines that are 'set pieces' [ie., benchrest, f-class, cross the course] are declining. By 'set piece' I mean everything is 'set'- the distance to the target, the shooter is at rest, the size of the target is known. The goals are all about getting centered, well formed, small groups.
Other disciplines like sporting clays and PRS/NRL, the shooter and/or the targets are moving. There's more action; the goals are getting hits vs small groups [even though the accuracy of PRS rifles has to be at least as accurate as ones for cross the course].

Personally, I don't ascribe the desire of action to be driven by the use of video games. Whatever is the reason for this shift in popularity may also be behind the attractiveness of video games.