Benchmark Barrels now offering carbon wrapped barrels

[ELR Researcher]

I just confirmed with Chris at Benchmark Barrels that they are now opening up their carbon-wrapped barrels to the general public. I had e-mailed him regarding an option listed on Northwest Action Work's website for " Upgrade to Benchmark Carbon Wrapped Barrel". Chris responded, "Yes I’ve been doing the carbon wrapped barrels here since last Aug, and am at the point where I am ready to launch to the public. Currently the smallest wrap I’ll contour is a #6 and a max finish of 28”, on the larger barrels I can go to 1.375-1.5" as well and up to 33” long, granted the muzzle has to be 1” or larger. Our lead-time is currently 4 months, and the retail cost is $800." Nothing on their website yet, you'll need to call (360-652-2594).

Move over Proof Research and Christensen Arms!

 

[rickiesrevenge]

Never had a carbon wrapped barrel. Is it worth the cost? That much would buy several top shelf barrels.

Aaron

 

[bsumoba]

I like the idea of carbon wrapped barrels for hunting. Or maybe even benchrest or F T/R, where weight might be an issue.

 

[JamesnTN]

I like the idea of carbon wrapped barrels for hunting. Or maybe even benchrest or F T/R, where weight might be an issue.

That's all fine for hunting but bench rest and the likes you will experience premature barrel wear and throat erosion. This has been proven many years ago research it and you'll see these wrapped barrels are not designed where we shoot numerous shots in a short time span.

 

[bsumoba]

I like the idea of carbon wrapped barrels for hunting. Or maybe even benchrest or F T/R, where weight might be an issue.

That's all fine for hunting but bench rest and the likes you will experience premature barrel wear and throat erosion. This has been proven many years ago research it and you'll see these wrapped barrels are not designed where we shoot numerous shots in a short time span.

Agree. hunting application IMO is the best for carbon wrapped barrels.

 

[LHSmith]

They may be black, but the tactical boy's won't buy 'em unless they're fluted :.
I'll pass on this chance to embrace the new technology.

 

[ELR Researcher]

They may be black, but the tactical boy's won't buy 'em unless they're fluted :.
I'll pass on this chance to embrace the new technology.

Carbon wrapping both reduces heat build up and reduces weight - the reasons that barrels are flutted. That said, carbon wrapping is purported as doing a substantially better job in both regards than flutting.

And BTW, Daniel Horner shoots a non-flutted Proof carbon fiber barrel is his championship AR-style rig - http://proofresearch.com/in-the-news/daniel-horner-wins-3-gun-nation-pro-series-championship/

 

[JamesnTN]

They may be black, but the tactical boy's won't buy 'em unless they're fluted :.
I'll pass on this chance to embrace the new technology.

Carbon wrapping both reduces heat build up and reduces weight - the reasons that barrels are flutted. That said, carbon wrapping is purported as doing a substantially better job in both regards than flutting.

And BTW, Daniel Horner shoots a non-flutted Proof carbon fiber barrel is his championship AR-style rig - http://proofresearch.com/in-the-news/daniel-horner-wins-3-gun-nation-pro-series-championship/

I won't argue but it's been proven many years ago that carbon wrapped barrels does not reduce heat? Ok maybe so on the exterior of the barrel but the bot of the barrel is capturing all the heat produced by the ignition of the cartridge. Common sense will say if the heat can't be felt on the outside then where is it? Of course it's inside the bore itself. Carbon fiber is a known insulator and with my background in the aerospace industry working with carbon fiber/composites we have tested extensively this very purpose.

Got anyone whom wishes to try a test for themselves take a sheet of carbon fiber and a sheet of say 1/4" sheet metal and put the two together. Now set the two pieces on a support and put a heat lamp on the metal side and let it radiate there for anywheres from 15-30 mins. Then with a thermo heat gun check the temp on the carbon fiber side and then check it on the metal side. You'll see several hundred degree difference between the two. This will represent the outer and inner of you barrel not 100% but enough to prove a difference in heat dispersion between the two materials.
Heat has to go somewhere and if it can radiate thru the outer of the metal then it's trapped inside.
The concept is good for a rifle that shoots only a couple shots such as a big game rifle but to sit down in a rifle match and shoot a match every 2-3 weeks you will find premature barrel wear as I've stated.
Back when these cargo wrapped barrels myself and another engineer performed a test with two identical rifles and calipers (22-250) and the wrapped barrel gave away in a few hunfpdred rounds over the standard barrel. I don't recall all the numbers but we shot one shot each measured temps inside and out.

If I need to go further I'm sure I still have those test results stashed back in. Folder someplace with enough data to prove myself.

 

[ELR Researcher]

They may be black, but the tactical boy's won't buy 'em unless they're fluted :.
I'll pass on this chance to embrace the new technology.

Carbon wrapping both reduces heat build up and reduces weight - the reasons that barrels are flutted. That said, carbon wrapping is purported as doing a substantially better job in both regards than flutting.

And BTW, Daniel Horner shoots a non-flutted Proof carbon fiber barrel is his championship AR-style rig - http://proofresearch.com/in-the-news/daniel-horner-wins-3-gun-nation-pro-series-championship/

I won't argue but it's been proven many years ago that carbon wrapped barrels does not reduce heat? Ok maybe so on the exterior of the barrel but the bot of the barrel is capturing all the heat produced by the ignition of the cartridge. Common sense will say if the heat can't be felt on the outside then where is it? Of course it's inside the bore itself. Carbon fiber is a known insulator and with my background in the aerospace industry working with carbon fiber/composites we have tested extensively this very purpose.

Got anyone whom wishes to try a test for themselves take a sheet of carbon fiber and a sheet of say 1/4" sheet metal and put the two together. Now set the two pieces on a support and put a heat lamp on the metal side and let it radiate there for anywheres from 15-30 mins. Then with a thermo heat gun check the temp on the carbon fiber side and then check it on the metal side. You'll see several hundred degree difference between the two. This will represent the outer and inner of you barrel not 100% but enough to prove a difference in heat dispersion between the two materials.
Heat has to go somewhere and if it can radiate thru the outer of the metal then it's trapped inside.
The concept is good for a rifle that shoots only a couple shots such as a big game rifle but to sit down in a rifle match and shoot a match every 2-3 weeks you will find premature barrel wear as I've stated.
Back when these cargo wrapped barrels myself and another engineer performed a test with two identical rifles and calipers (22-250) and the wrapped barrel gave away in a few hunfpdred rounds over the standard barrel. I don't recall all the numbers but we shot one shot each measured temps inside and out.

If I need to go further I'm sure I still have those test results stashed back in. Folder someplace with enough data to prove myself.

Great, notwithstanding your, "I won't argue but", sounds like you're up for a debate. Please contact Proof and ask them to either prove their statement, "•Improved heat dissipation for cooler and longer lasting barrels" (http://proofresearch.com/the-science/) or remove that statement as false advertising.

Then head on over to Christensen and challenge their claim, "Q: What kind of life can I get out of a carbon-fiber barrel?
(A) Carbon-fiber barrels add approximately 25 percent to the life of any barrel it is applied to. Independent tests show that the carbon wrap keeps the underlying steel layer approximately 25 percent cooler than a normal steel barrel, which in turn adds to the life of the barrel." (http://www.christensenarms.com/christensen-arms-customer-support/carbon-fiber-barrel-faqs/)

Please let us know how things turns out. If you're litigious, you may even come out ahead a few bucks.

BTW, I have zero skin in this game, only reporting (original post) what I find interesting and think others will also find interesting. As in, "don't shoot the messenger".

 

[JamesnTN]

They may be black, but the tactical boy's won't buy 'em unless they're fluted :.
I'll pass on this chance to embrace the new technology.

Carbon wrapping both reduces heat build up and reduces weight - the reasons that barrels are flutted. That said, carbon wrapping is purported as doing a substantially better job in both regards than flutting.

And BTW, Daniel Horner shoots a non-flutted Proof carbon fiber barrel is his championship AR-style rig - http://proofresearch.com/in-the-news/daniel-horner-wins-3-gun-nation-pro-series-championship/

I won't argue but it's been proven many years ago that carbon wrapped barrels does not reduce heat? Ok maybe so on the exterior of the barrel but the bot of the barrel is capturing all the heat produced by the ignition of the cartridge. Common sense will say if the heat can't be felt on the outside then where is it? Of course it's inside the bore itself. Carbon fiber is a known insulator and with my background in the aerospace industry working with carbon fiber/composites we have tested extensively this very purpose.

Got anyone whom wishes to try a test for themselves take a sheet of carbon fiber and a sheet of say 1/4" sheet metal and put the two together. Now set the two pieces on a support and put a heat lamp on the metal side and let it radiate there for anywheres from 15-30 mins. Then with a thermo heat gun check the temp on the carbon fiber side and then check it on the metal side. You'll see several hundred degree difference between the two. This will represent the outer and inner of you barrel not 100% but enough to prove a difference in heat dispersion between the two materials.
Heat has to go somewhere and if it can radiate thru the outer of the metal then it's trapped inside.
The concept is good for a rifle that shoots only a couple shots such as a big game rifle but to sit down in a rifle match and shoot a match every 2-3 weeks you will find premature barrel wear as I've stated.
Back when these cargo wrapped barrels myself and another engineer performed a test with two identical rifles and calipers (22-250) and the wrapped barrel gave away in a few hunfpdred rounds over the standard barrel. I don't recall all the numbers but we shot one shot each measured temps inside and out.

If I need to go further I'm sure I still have those test results stashed back in. Folder someplace with enough data to prove myself.

Great, notwithstanding your, "I won't argue but", sounds like you're up for a debate. Please contact Proof and ask them to either prove their statement, "•Improved heat dissipation for cooler and longer lasting barrels" (http://proofresearch.com/the-science/) or remove that statement as false advertising.

Then head on over to Christensen and challenge their claim, "Q: What kind of life can I get out of a carbon-fiber barrel?
(A) Carbon-fiber barrels add approximately 25 percent to the life of any barrel it is applied to. Independent tests show that the carbon wrap keeps the underlying steel layer approximately 25 percent cooler than a normal steel barrel, which in turn adds to the life of the barrel." (http://www.christensenarms.com/christensen-arms-customer-support/carbon-fiber-barrel-faqs/)

Please let us know how things turns out. If you're litigious, you may even come out ahead a few bucks.

BTW, I have zero skin in this game, only reporting (original post) what I find interesting and think others will also find interesting. As in, "don't shoot the messenger".

Anyone can claim and market there product as they see fit. I've worked in the aerospace industry now for 30 years building wings and structures from carbon fiber and composites. We have been building carbon laid up wings back in the B1B days and have extensively researched the heat resistance of carbon and composites.
Again real life and marketing are two different worlds. I speak of real world experience and as mentioned tested two barrel side by side shot for shot recording numbers on each shot. This was done back when Christensen Arms was marketing this product with claims that didn't add up. After these tests were done in the field and in our laboratory in the R&D department a copy was sent to Christensen arms with results.
This has been debated many years ago and again a simple procedure of proof I provided can back those claims.
The proof is in the real world use not in marketing.

 

[jonbearman]

At 800.00 plus I think I will buy 2 barrels and some brass for the money. I don't understand why they cost that much unless to make them is a pain in the arse.

 

[Hopkins]

The high price is supposed to validate the value of the product.The theory is that cheap perfume stinks and expensive doesn't.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

At 800.00 plus I think I will buy 2 barrels and some brass for the money. I don't understand why they cost that much unless to make them is a pain in the arse.

Carbon fiber is a pain to work with. I've seen the barrels that Chris is making, and he is taking great pains to get them right.

I would say that the cost of an unwrapped barrel is broken up into components of Labor, materials, and machining time. For carbon wrapping, I think that adding even $500 per barrel is a deal because of the excessive amount of labor involved. I suspect the cost we see is mostly just the materials (the carbon needed for this job is very special and not cheap).

As for the technology, I would shoot one for F-Open without reservation because the performance will be there. At the same time, I have the opposite weight problem from what CF is meant to cure.

If I were trying to build a long-range hunting rifle that I had to carry in the hills, CF would be the way to go.

 

[searcher]

In the cooling debate, an important component missing was the comparison of adding a carbon wrap to a STEEL barrel of a given diameter, versus a carbon wrapped barrel which is the same O.D. as the steel barrel, once carbon fiber has been applied. I have seen carbon fiber used as insulation also and would automatically disbelieve notions that it is a better conductor of heat than steel. I do know that it had better dispell heat better because if it does not - the heat from those little pencil barrels of steel will surely be short lived if repetitive firing is in order. That I cannot feel the heat from the barrel when touching the carbon fiber (as opposed to what one would feel with steel) lends no assurance to me that the barrel is shedding heat and that it could be blazing under that skin. I am currently working up a load for a Christenson bolt gun in 22/250. I can understand this being a stellar coyote gun - but owner also wants a load for squirrels. Don't know if this thing could shoot a 15-shot string at them without frying eggs inside the bore. I have worked up load data for three shot groups as I want to get through the 60 rounds I loaded in one day without cooking the barrel. It would be nice to know my concerns are unfounded but I do not believe everything I read - especially when it is from those promoting something.

 

[dcali]

I did composite materials testing and design engineering for a couple years. Composites are interesting and difficult.

It's worth mentioning that there are carbon fiber materials that are very good heat conductors. I don't know if that is what is being used by these vendors, and it's not a given that such a thing would lead to a significant improvement in heat dissipation, but they do exist.

However, most carbon fiber materials are very good insulators in spite of carbon being a fantastic conductor. The glue that holds it all together (the "matrix" in technical terms) is just glorified plastic, and a good insulator. IF this is what is being used, I would think it cooks those barrels up nicely. Avoid these.

There are also manufacturing and durability issues with any carbon fiber material that would cause me to approach them cautiously. There is a reason they're so expensive. It's very labor intensive, requires a lot of skill/knowledge from the workers, and it's possible to have defective parts that look visually perfect (from the outside). Inspection is also very expensive.

I am interested in these things, though - but for a reason that is different than most. Most people seem to want them because they are light, or because they are better at expelling heat. I am interested because they have a very different weight to stiffness ratio than a steel barrel, which is going to significantly impact the way they vibrate. That could be a good or a bad thing. But it's worth looking into.

All that said, this is just my experience with composites in general - I have none making barrels.

 

[Deadlift]

So there are a couple things that scream 2nd hand knowledge, from a mfg standpoint I will try to clear the mud. First off these wrapped barrels are extremely labor intensive. The carbon (pan fiber) is very abrasive, much more so than SS or aluminum, so that adds cost. In fact a std steel insert costs roughly $7-12 abd they will last 50 or so bbls while contouring down to the final profile. My inserts cost $26 and last 2-4 contoured barrels. Big cost difference, and then you have the actual barrel liner to contour. My wrapped blanks (benchmark liners) are one piece, which means more machine time and a higher price tag. So that brings me to the actual resin and compression of the blank, more time and cost to do it right. This is out of sequence but that's OK .. now we're at the stress relieving which is another part specific process and the process I use is one that I've tweaked over the last 10 months. This is just the start, obviously I'm not gonna go in depth on here but I will say the price doesn't just reflect the "cool" factor of the barrels. Next is the much debated heat factor. These barrels pull heat from the first shot to the last, I have tested this and proved it as well. 12 rounds on a 65x280 ack in 1 min produced 144° on the outside of the barrel AND 117° in the bore confirmed by thermometer and witnessed. The wrapped blanks have hi temp specifically formulated epoxy resin with a operating temp of 350° and 450° for the break down point. Obviously I am only speaking for the barrels I wrap.
anyway if this spurs any questions, just let me know.
Thanks!

 

[CaylenW]

Gents,

I've been shooting Proof Research carbon fiber wrapped barrels for several years now. I use them in both high round count rifles, as well as match-type rifles. I can tell you first hand that the claims that they don't hold up under high-volume strings is just flat out not true. I've personally tested several barrels at their facility in Kalispell, MT and one test stands out in memory against all the others. I was asked to shoot a .338 Norma as fast as I could possibly shoot it accurately for 50 rounds of sustained fire. The target was a steel plate at 670 yards (maximum range at their test facility) and in 12 minutes I shot all 50 rounds. The group size printed was a little under 4.7", and the barrel never walked, or opened up. I can say that all 6x of my carbon barrels produce the exact same results. I shoot everything from 5.56 up to 30 cal and all in between. I'll say to those who speak of heat transfer and the science behind it and that it's impossible to accomplish such a feat; the results are what they are, and cannot be argued. There's more to carbon fiber wrapped barrels than heat transfer, a lot more and most folks get wrapped around that axle without looking at the other benefits of carbon fiber wrapped barrels. Weight savings is only one. I'll end this by saying that Proof is the only company out there who's barrels are authorized for military use and there's many of them out there being used in that capacity.

Cheers.