guy, i have a question of sorts on group shooting a hunting stocked rem varminter. i have been working on the best loads that i can develop for an upcoming pd hunt. anyway what i find with new brass and and the best load i have to date are i can shoot 3 in a small cluster and usually get a flier or a 3 together and 2 together type groups. i have a brand new nightforce on the gun and really doubt its the scope. also the gun is a factory 6mm rem that has a fresh crown and bedding also a tuned 1lb trigger. my question stems from technique at the bench. being without a flat bottom br stock the forend can roll in the from ba some. i have been shooting almost free recoil to date and tried one group that that by rights was outside the load window that printed alot better holding the gun/ check and butstock into my shoulder. is free recoil more reserved for a bench gun or is a hunting gun have to be shot holding tight?
bench shooting methods?
- Thread starter fordwrench
- Start date
fordwrench said:
Yes, free recoil works for balanced comp guns with wide flat bottoms.,not for hunting type stocks. Also most BR rigs weigh more than factory varmint rigs.
As far as how tight one holds a hunting stock, you'll have to experiment what hold yield best results.
The key to shooting small is doing the same thing shot to shot .....taking into account the smallest details (+ using flags).
Also, one tiny group does not make that load "the holy grail"....especially for PD's you want a load that aggs the best in all conditions you expect to encounter.
thanks guys, i always shoot with wind flags and the free recoil method i have been using is carried over from shooting a few years of short range br. i have been working, tweaking the best loads i had from two different powders and comparing the results over several days shooting. i started tuning at 100yds and have moved to 200 to narrow things down. the loads have been reproducing similar results over several outings but im just trying to get rid of anything outside the cluster. i have had ok conditions with very light winds. been using rl 17 at 3400fps berger 80gr mv also h 4831 near 3300 fps and the same bullet. how much would brand new out of the bag brass, flash holes uniformed and an expander mander .0008 under bullet dia ran thru the new cases as prep influence grouping vs. partial fl resized , no set back, 3/4 of the neck sized 1x formed brass change things. is the new brass being undersized and not fitted such a big deal? i ask this because i am trying my best to get them to shoot a good load unformed on the hunt. i am loading 500 for this gun to go and didnt want to shoot them all once before going . the barrel has maybe 300 rds through it and was hoping to not burn it up before the hunt. any thought welcome...
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Bench technique depends on the recoil of the rifle, what it weighs, how it is stocked and balanced. You are shooting a rifle that will not perform consistently shooting free recoil. There may be other factors, but it is really that simple. Don't try to tell a rifle what to do; ask it what it likes. This is one of the most common mistakes in shooting. If you want different results, do something different.
Thanks for the info. I ll ck that article out. For what its worth the rifle is a std 6mm rem in a bdl varminter. It has a factory stock, bedded and a fresh 11dg crown and a 1lb trigger. Varmint contour barrel that factory also. it has enogh recoil to upset the gun on the bag each shot. I realize its no a br gun or a br caliber but I am trying to the best it has and I have with regards to the circumstances. It has shot lots on nice group but I haven't settle on anything in stone. Maybe I'm expecting too much? It will typically shoot a half inch give or take at 100 and an inch or so at 200 from the best loads. I am seeing some bullets stray from the group and I am try to fix this. Barrel was scoped before the crown job and the smith said it looked ok to him. Any ideas?
Lhsmith, I guess I should have been more clear on my resizing method. 99 percent of the time I fl resize. But I won't sent the die until the case has been shot twice. That way its fully formed and then I set the die by removing the firing pin and adjusting the de untill I get light drag on bolt closure. I feel that the case being maintained at the correct headspace is very important but I don't set them till the 3rd loading. Am I wrong doing this?
I shoot Rem 700 VLS Varmint in .243 Win and use groups to help tune for Varmint for Score type shooting. Several things adversely affect the rifle on a rest. First thing everyone will tell you about is sling studs. The finish on the stock sticks to leather pretty good, this is pretty common since I see most everyone using talc, teflon tape or something to lube the stock & bags so it slides well. You have to have your shoulder into it to limit the movement. It should be so that if you place more pressure on the stock the barrel moves only vertically. Pressure that moves the barrel left lets it recoil left and the shot follows. The Monte Carlo cheek piece & the angle on the rear of the stock rides the rear bag and deflects. If you keep enough shoulder into the stock into the stock to see the impact you minimize the deflection due to the shape of the stock.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I did not mean to discourage you, just point out that a different technique is in order. I find that rifles can be shouldered and held, with a great deal more force than is generally thought to be workable...with good results, but there are rules for this approach. Use high enough rings so that you only have enough cheek contact to locate the scope. Sit square to the rifle, and move your scope as needed to work with this posture. Apply pressure straight back at the grip with the second and third fingers only. Make sure that your stock is short enough that you do not palm the stock with your trigger hand. Pull straight back on the trigger with it in the middle of the first pad of the index finger, not in the joint. Practice dry firing and watch the cross hairs. From the bench, or a steady rest, use steadily increasing pressure on the trigger. Don't pulse it. Let it surprise you. Don't press down behind the tang with your trigger hand thumb. You can rest it there but not with much pressure. Support your trigger hand and elbow on sand bags so that you sit relaxed at the bench. Use a seat of the correct height, adjustability makes this easier. Make sure that your rear bag is between your sling swivel stud and the rear of the pistol grip. Do not ever rest a sporter type forend right behind the front sling swivel. It should be maybe an inch in front of the front of the front action screw, two at the most. Take a close look at your front bag, and how it fits the stock. Don't fill it too light. Check you rear bag for side to side rock, and being filled too hard. It should not move during recoil. A little baby powder on leather bags really helps. Don't shift your body position during a group. Don't inspect your shots while shooting a group, They aren't going any place and you should be reloading and reaiming as fast as you can after your follow through. Be totally dead and nonreactive as the shot breaks. Don't get into the habit of raising up and looking down range. You can't see the bullet hole that way, and you will shift your body position and loose time. Time is important because if you can get several, or all of your shots off during a wind condition that is holding relatively steady. if the wind won't come back to the condition that previous shots were fired in, use a sighter target to find your hold off. That is the way that it is done in 1-300 yd Benchrest matches. You probably know most of these tips, but someone else reading this may not, and if one helps, than your are still ahead. Above all, don't be afraid to experiment. You wouldn't believe how i have to shoot a light .222, that I own, to get it to shoot its best. (high twos, to mid threes) Good shooting.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
A friend was getting two shots touching and a flier, from a custom built 7wsm, with all the bells and whistles. Off of the same rest and bag, I was able to fix the problem by repositioning the rest and rear bag, adjusting the cheek piece, and making some changes in how he was holding the rifle. I have done this several times, for several shooters. Guys that have been shooting for many years, and who have good equipment tend to assume that they know what they are doing. Most of the time they/we are self taught. The kicker is that most are not experimenters, and they have never had anyone actually watch them shoot to see if there are any problems. The way that you know that your analysis of a situation is correct is if the change that you make works. In many cases, the changes that were made, after watching someone shoot, improved their results, they worked. It may in fact be the rifle, or it may not. In my experience, getting shooters to try something different is difficult, even if they are dissatisfied with the results that they are getting doing things the way that they are. This is not a problem for me, just an observation. More than once, I have helped a shooter shoot better from the bench. They have been pleased with the result, then when observing the same shooter a couple of months later, he will be shooting the same way as before,and getting the same results. If you find someone that actually makes a permanent change in what they do, based on the superior results obtained by the change, you are dealing with the exception, rather than the rule. Understand, I am fully aware that it is much easier to see someone else's problem, and I am sure that I would benefit from some coaching myself. To this end, my next experiment will be to use the video feature of my digital camera to record my own efforts while shooting, so that I can do a little self coaching. I wish that I had some one that shoots Benchrest to practice with.
thanks boyd and everyone else that shared your opinions. i have in the past had good luck shooting free recoil with my br gun. my ar demands a tight hold and so does my sporter weight rifles. i guess i just thought i had enough rifle weight to shoot it " light" . some very good thoughts were brought up on stock design and proper use of handling. i am looking forward to testing these ideas on my next trip to the range. i overlooked the some of this. i am a self taught shooter of 20+ years and do not feel bad at all about learning something from anyone. if i can pickup something its taken someone a long time to learn, im all ears. thank you!
I learned something very interesting at a 1K match last weekend...
I have a purpose-built 1K bench gun (Light gun class, chambered in 6BR, 3" fore end, etc...). I couldn't get the thing to shoot at all. What I thought, being new to BR and long-range shooting, was that free-recoil was the way to go. I was shooting all over the paper when shooting free recoil... I was getting very upset with how the gun was shooting. At that point, someone suggested I hold the front of the gun. The advice went something like this... "just reach up there and grab the stock right behind the front rest, and leave that hand in that position for the entire string - DON'T move it!" (Basically what I was told, is to hold the stock, but do it exactly the same every time.) I loaded 10 more rounds, shot 2 sighters, then first shot a 6" group with the remaining 8 shots. The next day (during the match) I held the stock up front, gripped the hell out of the back (with the trigger hand) and won my relay!
The point of all this, is that you need to find what the gun likes. When people say to use a 'hard hold' I interpret that to hold the gun tight against you without any effort. (Hold it naturally, but get it up against your shoulder, hard on your cheek, and keep that front hand in the same position each time). By doing this, I went from shooting 20" groups to 6" groups at 1K. Some claim that my bag setup is the root cause of not being able to shoot free-recoil. They are probably correct, but I have no desire to change it right now because it's working for me
Also, don't EVER assume that a brand new scope (regardless of brand) is "good". New equipment does fail, and it happens more often than we'd like to believe
I have a purpose-built 1K bench gun (Light gun class, chambered in 6BR, 3" fore end, etc...). I couldn't get the thing to shoot at all. What I thought, being new to BR and long-range shooting, was that free-recoil was the way to go. I was shooting all over the paper when shooting free recoil... I was getting very upset with how the gun was shooting. At that point, someone suggested I hold the front of the gun. The advice went something like this... "just reach up there and grab the stock right behind the front rest, and leave that hand in that position for the entire string - DON'T move it!" (Basically what I was told, is to hold the stock, but do it exactly the same every time.) I loaded 10 more rounds, shot 2 sighters, then first shot a 6" group with the remaining 8 shots. The next day (during the match) I held the stock up front, gripped the hell out of the back (with the trigger hand) and won my relay!
The point of all this, is that you need to find what the gun likes. When people say to use a 'hard hold' I interpret that to hold the gun tight against you without any effort. (Hold it naturally, but get it up against your shoulder, hard on your cheek, and keep that front hand in the same position each time). By doing this, I went from shooting 20" groups to 6" groups at 1K. Some claim that my bag setup is the root cause of not being able to shoot free-recoil. They are probably correct, but I have no desire to change it right now because it's working for me
Also, don't EVER assume that a brand new scope (regardless of brand) is "good". New equipment does fail, and it happens more often than we'd like to believe
Well Boyd, I for one was aware of most of the technigues you have spoken of, but have over looked them the last cpl of range trips. There were a cpl that I haven't thought off and they make good since. So at the least your post refreshed me on bench methods as well I picked up a cpl I will try and see how they work with two of my HS stocks. These little disciplines make a big differents once you get past 300yrds! Glad you posted them!BoydAllen said:
Mark
well.. i gave it a noble effort and tried as many of the ideas that guys posted. to no avail i saw no improvement in group sizes. shot at 200 yds today, multiple loads and groups. i still get stray bullets hanging out of my best groups for really no explained reasons. shot over br type windflags in similar conditions and saw some unexplained shots that really didnt match wind conditions. i messed tried everything from stock screw torque, 5 different powders, 3 kinds of bullets, multiple weight. i am starting to think its at the best it will be without geting it trued and a new aftermarket barrel. thanks for the info here i added to my knowledge in this thread.
Most times I go to the range for load work-up, I take more than one rifle. I always take a rifle with that has been shooting well. This way I can somewhat eliminate if it's just me on that particular day, or there is some condition going on that cannot be picked up by flags or a mirage board.
Also, I always clean the bore before switching powder....it takes extra components to re-foul the bore, but my experience dictates that firing different powders during a load work-up yields inconsistent results.
You may be correct in your assumption that it is the best it can do....it parallels my experience with most factory guns.
Also, I always clean the bore before switching powder....it takes extra components to re-foul the bore, but my experience dictates that firing different powders during a load work-up yields inconsistent results.
You may be correct in your assumption that it is the best it can do....it parallels my experience with most factory guns.
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