Being Self-Taught is Commendable but...

[HalfCZ]

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Do the experts on this forum Agree with these ideas? ​

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[Gregg57]

Everyone can benefit from a seasoned Rimefire/Centerfire mentor. You journey to proficient competitor will be longer and fraught with wrong turns and speed bumps if you are not listening and hanging out with the top level competitors in the game your playing. Just sayin.....

Gregg

 

[CharlieNC]

Not only is that a very incomplete list, the technique depends on how you are shooting (prone, benchrest, etc).

 

[Emmett Dibble]

Chat GPT is not a mentor….

 

[HalfCZ]

Interesting feedback, thank you!
I shoot BR and Silo.
Gregg, you spell it the same way my brother does so I think you are legit.
I have bought exactly what the best shooter uses. Now I need to get my form
down.

 

[GetReal]

I coulda used a mentor for my rifle purchasing / building decisions.

 

[rwj]

The advantage of self taught is not being constrained by existing beliefs/practices. New thoughts/approaches often lead to creative/novel solutions. You do need to be “thick skinned” to read the responses if you chose to share your self learning experiences (see the recent @Ron_R thread).

 

[K22]

Speaking from experience, albeit from a competitive pistol standpoint, where I really learned to shoot competitively was on an Army Post Pistol Team. The instructions and drills were outstanding. Also using the Army Marksmanship Manual as a textbook was a great aide in learning the fundamentals of pistol target shooting.

While some have no alternative to self-teaching, with today's technology it should be more effective than in my day. But in my day, nothing quite matched hands-on coaching as the quickest and most effective way to reach your potential. The problem with self-teaching is once poor habits are learned; it becomes more difficult to correct them.

 

[TRSR8]

Of importance is also “ acceptance”.
An example, a well known fact in the RFBR world, women can become very accomplished ,often with a shorter learning curve.
Why? Because usually, they’re not hardheads, listen to what they’re taught, don’t have to waste untold time unlearning BS.

 

[jimmymac]

Being self taught is not simple. It is easy to ingrain poor habits that are difficult to break. It took me the better part of two years to break a bad habit I developed during my self taught phase.

 

[Gregg57]

The advantage of self taught is not being constrained by existing beliefs/practices. New thoughts/approaches often lead to creative/novel solutions.

While I would agree your statement is within the realm of possibility. Would you give that message to the individual that invented the mouse trap?

Being self taught is not simple. It is easy to ingrain poor habits that are difficult to break. It took me the better part of two years to break a bad habit I developed during my self taught phase.

I agree 100% with your statement. Unless you are one of the rare one percent of human beings, a person that has been trained and well grounded in the foundational skills (you name the activity) will have the advantage in personal advancement/development.

I am not a 1% individual. Just one of the things training taught me was how to effectively practice. I am still learning how read the wind and all the environmental aspects of the day to adjust my POA to make contact with the necessary POI.

Once someone has mastered the foundational skills and able to understand cause and effect, they can experiment with minor changes in technique. These could be things they have seen, talked or read about. If it works for the individual that's fine, because there is no ONE way. An advanced shooter will need to determine for themselves whether a technique is useful or not. The target does not lie!

To jimmymac's comment. I know a group of people that have practiced a form of martial arts for three plus decades. Their conclusion to "bad habits" is, it takes a minimum of 100 plus proper movements to self correct.

Gregg

 

[rwj]

While I would agree your statement is within the realm of possibility. Would you give that message to the individual that invented the mouse trap?

Yes. If all one does is copy what has already been done, how is improvement realized? The best that can be achieved by copying is replication of past results. I’m not dismissing past accomplishments, nor discouraging building upon them, but they may not yield the best outcome. I encourage free thinking and seeking of non-obvious solutions. The patent office is full of examples…

 

[Gregg57]

If all one does is copy what has already been done, how is improvement realized?

rwj,

First, I am not attempting to argue with what I believe is your basic premise of imagination/creativity.

What has "already been done" equates to the solid foundational skills. Otherwise, "creative and novel solutions" can turnout like the day when I was 9 years old. I jumped off the roof of our garage with homemade cardboard wings thinking, I might be able to fly. Fortunately, the grass provided a relatively soft landing.

As I stated prior. Unless you are a rare 0.1 to 1% of the human (Da Vinci, Einstein, Tesla) population on the planet. Most likely the 99% of us will significantly benefit from a trainer/mentor.........

I'm an older dude. Having training and being a trainer, for the most part (I am still a student!) I have found what works and what doesn't.

Get training, learn how to properly and efficiently practice. Then practice, practice, add infinity. After that, go ahead and try adding something a little different. Maybe it will work for you?

Gregg

 

[rwj]

rwj,

First, I am not attempting to argue with what I believe is your basic premise of imagination/creativity.

What has "already been done" equates to the solid foundational skills. Otherwise, "creative and novel solutions" can turnout like the day when I was 9 years old. I jumped off the roof of our garage with homemade cardboard wings thinking, I might be able to fly. Fortunately, the grass provided a relatively soft landing.

As I stated prior. Unless you are a rare 0.1 to 1% of the human (Da Vinci, Einstein, Tesla) population on the planet. Most likely the 99% of us will significantly benefit from a trainer/mentor.........

I'm an older dude. Having training and being a trainer, for the most part (I am still a student!) I have found what works and what doesn't.

Get training, learn how to properly and efficiently practice. Then practice, practice, add infinity. After that, go ahead and try adding something a little different. Maybe it will work for you?

Gregg

I’m not arguing either, just encouraging people to challenge established boundaries. I’m a firm believer in the saying “repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting different results is one definition of insanity.” I’ve traveled my own path for nearly 70 years and plan to do so until my end of days.

 

[jimmymac]

Good thread. From my own perspective, I would have benefitted greatly from a hands on mentor early on in this endeavor. I had some tough sledding trying to go it mostly alone on the front end.

In my case, I taught myself the wrong way of operating a right bolt, left port with no ejector action. A hands on mentor would have straightened me out right away. Instead, I just kept further ingraining a poor habit that I did not even know I had! It took me some serious effort to break the cycle once the issue was brought to my attention by a nice guy on the line who was watching me struggle.

I am all for innovation and cutting your own path, but good hands on help in the beginning stages of this endeavor is the best way to go because we don’t know what we don’t know. Get the basics down, then swim upstream with enough knowledge to give yourself a fighting chance. YMMV

 

[Gregg57]

rwj,

Apologies, in my attempt to explain the value of mentorship and legitimate formal/casual training, something was lost. I have failed you.

I'm not sure my initial question to you regarding the mouse trap was understood. Currently there have been more patents issued for mouse traps than any other device on the planet. Which one has been THE most used by the public? The Victor, created and manufactured since 1898. It's effective, inexpensive and no other device has been more successful. Take a look at some of the 4,400+ mousetrap patents with all their wildly creative "out of the box" thinking and where it has gotten the designers. That would be nowhere. The longevity of the Victor speaks for itself. It is the "foundation" of mouse traps if you will.

You may ask, what do mousetraps have to do with the subject matter. I have no issues with challenging established perceived boundaries, as long as one knows the topic, has good basic foundational skills and there "new thought/approaches" actually makes themselves and or others better at whatever the desired task is. Primarily, It's for the advanced student. One has to recognize that a problem or deficiency actually exists before a solution or different technique (better way) can be sought or applied. For most including myself, it can be difficult to be objective about oneself.

Can not think of anything more constructive to add. I believe the onset of a migraine has begun. I'm out!

Gregg

 

[HalfCZ]

I need proper training to get better. At my age the army won't be training me. I don't know where a person goes to get training in Factory BR? I ask questions, watch and mimic the best people at the WCW club's ARA events. I want to refine the basics I am working on now. I have the proper gear and lot matched ammo. Maybe I can't get better but I need to know for sure. Thoughts?

 

[Gregg57]

My back ground for the most part has been pistol shooting. The game I was involved with was IHMSA and similar to factory BR, there were no formal training entities at the time. Everyone was winging it and paying attention to the top level competitors equipment, shooting style and talking to one another in hopes of improving ourselves.

Post IHMSA I did seek and found training companies for defensive shooting. Took pistol, carbine (Ar-15) and shotgun classes from three different entities (i need more training) in Michigan. I was able to test and earn NRA certifications from that training.

Personally, I do not currently know of any BR training facilities. My best advice at this time is be friendly, outgoing and establish as many relationships with the best shooters in BR. Most shooters are willing to give advice and help newer shooters that show a genuine interest and passion for the sport. The top level (wining) shooters have valuable insights and information. All it might cost you is some of your time and a beverage of their preference. Politely and timely, ask questions and inform them of your concerns and desire to become a better shooter. They can help but, only you can make yourself a more proficient shooter.

Good luck and make it fun for yourself!

Gregg

 

[dgeesaman]

Yes. If all one does is copy what has already been done, how is improvement realized? The best that can be achieved by copying is replication of past results. I’m not dismissing past accomplishments, nor discouraging building upon them, but they may not yield the best outcome. I encourage free thinking and seeking of non-obvious solutions. The patent office is full of examples…

If generations of shooters evolving the sport has gotten us to this point, what chance does a newcomer have to reach or surpass the pack, within their lifetime, by ignoring that body of work?

I get the notion, and if you’ve become world class you should be trying new things to develop further, but for a newcomer I simply disagree. Newcomers should follow current best practices for a while and if you can develop the ability to compete with the best, strike out from there.

 

[rwj]

If generations of shooters evolving the sport has gotten us to this point, what chance does a newcomer have to reach or surpass the pack, within their lifetime, by ignoring that body of work?

Please see the post you quoted where I stated “I’m not dismissing past accomplishments, nor discouraging building upon them” and a later post where I stated “just encouraging people to challenge established boundaries.”

I get the notion, and if you’ve become world class you should be trying new things to develop further, but for a newcomer I simply disagree. Newcomers should follow current best practices for a while and if you can develop the ability to compete with the best, strike out from there.

We each choose our own paths through life. I chose to be a “free thinker” and it has certainly created its share of issues. No regrets, but it is not for everyone.