Barrel tuners. Good or a waste of time?

[Greyfox]

Sometimes it's a good thing to be simple minded. I don't need to know why or even how it works. I just need to know that it does and how to make the adjustments. I'll let the scientists and tinkerers figure it out and I'll reap the benefits. Kinda like a car, I couldn't build one but I know where the gas goes in and how to start it up.

Rick

 

[JMayo]

My understanding is we search for the right bullet and powder combo by shooting 100's of rounds looking for
"What the rifle barrel likes"
Tuning harmonics .....
That's why I've gone CF vrs 22.
The ole argument "The barrel isn't tuned right" has been a thought in my head for so many years .... I thought I had escaped it.
Now, YALL are trying to bring it back !
Nope, not gonna play this game at this time .... Nope, not not gonna think about it.
...Hummm, I wonder if ...... Nope, not going there ....

 

[Judd]

I tried the Harrells tuner brake on two barrels. To specifically answer the good or waste question that depends on you. They work but I also believe it takes quite a bit of data/experience with one to know what to do to it in different conditions.

I don't shoot a game where we have continuous sighters so I don't have the luxury of making a change during a match and seeing what it does. I get a sight period at the beginning of the day and from there on out every bullet down the bore scores. So for me it was a waste.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

My understanding is we search for the right bullet and powder combo by shooting 100's of rounds looking for
"What the rifle barrel likes"
Tuning harmonics .....
That's why I've gone CF vrs 22.
The ole argument "The barrel isn't tuned right" has been a thought in my head for so many years .... I thought I had escaped it.
Now, YALL are trying to bring it back !
Nope, not gonna play this game at this time .... Nope, not not gonna think about it.
...Hummm, I wonder if ...... Nope, not going there ....

That rimfire game is nuts! I chalk a lot of the tuner confusion up to, you know who. The famous dirt floor gunschmidt. That and the fact that you're always chasing tune with different lots of ammo. One thing is certain, physics and leaving a tuner set without ever touching it are in conflict with one another. Yes, you can tune a gun, be it rf or cf with ammo. But you can also do it with a tuner. Tuners are a lot the easiest.

People over complicate them and a lot of rf guys have done so. As greyfox said above, you just need to know how to make them work...not every little reason why they do. It's really pretty simple in general terms that we can all understand. Powder burning is a chemical reaction. All chemical reactions are temperature dependent, so tune changes with temps. All the tuner is doing is maintaining peak tune by timing optimal muzzle position with bullet exit. Think about that for a second...I've advocated for a long time that very small tuner adjustments are all that's necessary to maintain tune. The minute amount of time the bullet is in the barrel changes by far less time than that...like a fraction of 1% of total in bore time for a 20° temp change. So let's say it's .6% of 1.5 milliseconds. Now, if you only had to know the frequency change 1 mark on the tuner gives, you could calculate how far to move the tuner. Guess what..1 mark is pretty close to what a 20° change needs!(with my tuner) Lots of variables here but when you think about how small .6% of 1.5 milliseconds is, you can better wrap your head around why it takes such small adjustments.

The two most common mistakes people make with a tuner is moving it too far and moving it too often. In the case of some, it's by not moving it at all when needed. That leaves you with an expensive weight on the end of your barrel(which does have some benefit, alone) and back where you started...tuning with ammo or not doing so well in the match. We are nearing the point where a tuner on a cf br rifle is just as much part of a new build as is a trigger, stock and barrel. You can still win in cf without one but the day is fast approaching that I don't think that'll happen very often....if at all.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I tried the Harrells tuner brake on two barrels. To specifically answer the good or waste question that depends on you. They work but I also believe it takes quite a bit of data/experience with one to know what to do to it in different conditions.

I don't shoot a game where we have continuous sighters so I don't have the luxury of making a change during a match and seeing what it does. I get a sight period at the beginning of the day and from there on out every bullet down the bore scores. So for me it was a waste.

Sighters do help tremendously but it's not hard to develop a set of notes to be of great help. Even if you never touch the tuner, the extra mass is of benefit. You're just stuck back where you were, by tuning with traditional methods or hoping it stays in tune throughout the day, well enough.
I'll never shoot competitively again...without a tuner. Unless something better comes along.

 

[Bart B.]

You guys make my head hurt.

Sorry 'bout that.

There are many people who believe the cartridge case rests in the bottom of the chamber when fired. Sierra Bullets stated that in their early reloading manuals.

 

[Gene Beggs]

Very well said Mike. You are right at the cutting edge of tuner technology! I'm so happy to see you reaping the rewards of all your research, experimentation and hard work. I'm so proud of you, and thanks for straightening me out on making .001 adjustments rather than the quarter and half turns I was making for years. That alone turned on the lights and revealed a whole 'nuther world to me about using a tuner. Keep up the good work my friend; you're making great progress and thank you for sharing it all with the rest of us.

Best regards,

Gene Beggs

 

[Gene Beggs]

Sometimes it's a good thing to be simple minded. I don't need to know why or even how it works. I just need to know that it does and how to make the adjustments. I'll let the scientists and tinkerers figure it out and I'll reap the benefits. Kinda like a car, I couldn't build one but I know where the gas goes in and how to start it up.

Rick

I'm with you Rick. Being simple minded is often a good thing; huh?
So many people try to make something hard out of using a simple barrel tuner.
Mike Ezell is making great progress in dispelling many of the old myths that have slowed progress in both rimfire and centerfire rifle accuracy.

Best regards,

Gene Beggs

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Very well said Mike. You are right at the cutting edge of tuner technology! I'm so happy to see you reaping the rewards of all your research, experimentation and hard work. I'm so proud of you, and thanks for straightening me out on making .001 adjustments rather than the quarter and half turns I was making for years. That alone turned on the lights and revealed a whole 'nuther world to me about using a tuner. Keep up the good work my friend; you're making great progress and thank you for sharing it all with the rest of us.

Best regards,

Gene Beggs

Gene, it means the world to hear that from you. Thank you so much! I'm trying and I'm persistent. I've got some more testing to start asap...maybe this week if the weather cooperates. It should be very interesting to a large segment of shooters. Wish I had your tunnel. I won't get cold but I can't keep my bullets out of the wind, like you. Lol!

 

[BartsBullets]

I tried the Harrells tuner brake on two barrels. To specifically answer the good or waste question that depends on you. They work but I also believe it takes quite a bit of data/experience with one to know what to do to it in different conditions.

I don't shoot a game where we have continuous sighters so I don't have the luxury of making a change during a match and seeing what it does. I get a sight period at the beginning of the day and from there on out every bullet down the bore scores. So for me it was a waste.

Judd,

I’ve never found any tuner brake to work properly as a tuner! Pretty much a total waste of time. I’ve tried several brands and though they work as a muzzle break, they are a poor excuse for a tuner. Most of the time the position of the groups changed, but the shape of the group didn’t! Also the point of impact changed way too much for my comfort level at mid and long range.

Bart

 

[Terry]

Tested at 0,5,10,15,20&25. The zero quadrant was best.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Tested at 0,5,10,15,20&25. The zero quadrant was best.View attachment 1075755

Terry, where did this "quadrant" stuff come from? It's much simpler than this. It's an actual picture of why there is so much confusion regarding tuners and completely unnecessary.

Ps...actually, I think I know who started this quadrant talk. It's just way easier than that.

 

[Terry]

This is why this forum is so successful. Post something or say something and someone walks up and smacks you in the back of the head.

 

[BartsBullets]

This is why this forum is so successful. Post something or say something and someone walks up and smacks you in the back of the head.

Hummmm I figure out which quadrant the barrel prefers. As a matter of fact I’ve explained to Terry how I sit my tuners.

Terry’s groups look good and I’m pretty sure he’s shooting big long bullets which are harder to tune then something like the 30br or PPC.

I think the words Mike was really looking for is “Good Shooting Terry!”

Bart

 

[geordiesniper]

Just a word of thanks to all that have replied to my original question. Especially Mike who explained it quite succinctly and in words I can understand, without having my head hurt.
Best wishes to All and good shooting.
Les

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This is why this forum is so successful. Post something or say something and someone walks up and smacks you in the back of the head.

It wasn't meant as a smack on the back of the head. Its a nudge in the right direction.
I have never seen any of the quadrant stuff play out..not one time. in my experience, if you're moving it more than one mark at a time, you're moving it to far.
The tune repeats over and over. So, you can move it somewhat randomly and find the next sweet spot. The problem is what happens when it creeps out of tune and you don't stumble upon the right spot, next time?
I suggest being very methodical and moving the tuner one mark at a time.

Terry, if you go back and read this thread or just about any tuner thread that I've ever posted in, you'd see that your post is in contrast to what I've consistently said. So who's smacking who in the back of the head anyway?

Im sorry if I came across that way and I'd be more than happy to talk with you any time to try and be of help.

Bart, just keep doing what works for you.

When it comes to my tuners, I prefer that instructions come from me. Of course anyone is free to use them however they find works best.

 

[BartsBullets]

It wasn't meant as a smack on the back of the head. Its a nudge in the right direction.
I have never seen any of the quadrant stuff play out..not one time. in my experience, if you're moving it more than one mark at a time, you're moving it to far.
The tune repeats over and over. So, you can move it somewhat randomly and find the next sweet spot. The problem is what happens when it creeps out of tune and you don't stumble upon the right spot, next time?
I suggest being very methodical and moving the tuner one mark at a time.

Terry, if you go back and read this thread or just about any tuner thread that I've ever posted in, you'd see that your post is in contrast to what I've consistently said. So who's smacking who in the back of the head anyway?

Im sorry if I came across that way and I'd be more than happy to talk with you any time to try and be of help.

Bart, just keep doing what works for you.

When it comes to my tuners, I prefer that instructions come from me. Of course anyone is free to use them however they find works best.

Mike,

I run with a pretty fast crowd such as Nationals and Super Shoot Winners. We have figured out a few things that others haven’t and probably never will. Just because you can’t see an advantage, it doesn’t mean that it’s not there. For what it’s worth, once I determine the quadrant I’m looking for I stay within the quadrant but adjust only 1 or 2 marks to keep the gun shooting. What did you say the other day, “Keep your mind open to other possibilities.”

As far as giving instructions on adjusting a tuner I think I’m well qualified. David Detsch is an outstanding die maker! But that doesn’t make him an expert Bullet maker!

Bart

 

[rardoin]

I've seen the results, at 1000yds, of moving Mike's PDT .5 increment on a 6.5/150gr bullet. The reduction in vertical was significant for F-class. I rarely make more than 1-1.5 increment move to get the grouping where I want it. The way I use it is to tune a load with the tuner set at an arbitrary point....usually zero if it gives several increments of adjustment on either side. If I show up at a match and it has more vertical in the load expected I will give the tuner a move of 1 increment and shoot 2-3 more rounds. I am in my infancy with tuner use but it has worked well for me thus far. It is difficult to use for F-class shooting as we usually only get one unlimited sighter period first match of the day (and maybe not even then) but keeping careful logs and data allows me to give a good idea of the direction I need to turn it to get the grouping back to where it's baseline should be. With time I know I will become even more proficient.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike,

I run with a pretty fast crowd such as Nationals and Super Shoot Winners. We have figured out a few things that others haven’t and probably never will. Just because you can’t see an advantage, it doesn’t mean that it’s not there. For what it’s worth, once I determine the quadrant I’m looking for I stay within the quadrant but adjust only 1 or 2 marks to keep the gun shooting. What did you say the other day, “Keep your mind open to other possibilities.”

As far as giving instructions on adjusting a tuner I think I’m well qualified. David Detsch is an outstanding die maker! But that doesn’t make him an expert Bullet maker!

Bart

I don't pull this stuff from my back side. I bet your crowd isn't as fast as the laser accelerometer and other test equipment that we used to come to valid conclusions. I don't post things that are tuner related that are based on my opinion, belief or open mindedness. When it comes to tuners, I've measured, quantified and verified before I post it. And yes, even tested it on paper, albeit with my meager shooting abilities.... a lot!

As I said, use it the way you feel works best for you. This isn't a pissing contest. Have it your way but we've come a long way in a pretty short time with using tuners by keeping to an honest and consistent message regarding small and methodical adjustment.
The problem with tuners was never that they didn't work...it was how we were using them. If you're seeing something that I'm not, that's great but from what I understand, the quadrant method is about a wider node location in regard to how far you can move the tuner and it stay in tune...which is irrelevant to condition related tune stability...which is what does matter. Furthermore, it's also irrelevant if you know how far and when to move the tuner to fix it.
I'm glad it's working for you regardless.

 

[normmatzen]

I believe the speed of sound in stainless is 2000 fps.
I also don't make barrels out of glass or other stiffer mediums so I didn't include them.