Barrel tuners. Good or a waste of time?

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don’t know. I just have not observed a bias towards vertical groups. Might deserve a new thread.

Ya know, I found that too much weight created fliers. It happens sooner with a stiffer barrel, believe it or not. I wonder if what you're seeing and this are related. I'm talking STIFF...like a 16" 1.450 stiff, in front of a barrel block. Any ideas?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Gravity and the rifle's tendancy to rotate on it's c/g will naturally give a bias towards vertical stringing, however I find individual powders and barrels will override that.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Gravity and the rifle's tendancy to rotate on it's c/g will naturally give a bias towards vertical stringing, however I find individual powders and barrels will override that.

Since virtually every rifles cg is below the cl of the bore, wouldn't it's rotation create more horizontal than vertical?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Actually I'd bet a lot of short range rifles with really light low profile stocks have a c/g pretty close to the bore line, on purpose, no doubt. But when the c/g is below the bore line, the muzzle will rise and the butt will drive into the bag.

 

[Gene Beggs]

Several have asked whether you should do initial testing with or without the tuner installed. I say, definitely with the tuner installed and set to zero. It can be done either way but why bother and put more rounds than necessary down the tube.

When I chamber a new barrel, I also thread the muzzle for the tuner and conduct initial load testing with the tuner set to 'zero.' It seems a waste of time to do otherwise.

I shoot only short-range group with either my 220Beggs or 6Beggs in a 10.5 pound Hall Sporter. I use either Krieger or Bartlein barrels cut to 22 inches. I know what muzzle velocity to expect and obtain that with whatever powder I'm using at the time. I've used N133, pulldown 8208, H-322, LT-32, Benchmark, H4198 etc. They all work fine in either cartridge; same goes for the 22 and 6PPC. My 220 likes to shoot at 3500 to 3550 and the 6mm at 3330 to 3350 so there is no time wasted testing at any other velocities. Once I reach the desired velocity as shown by the Oehler 35 chronograph, I lock the Jones powder measure at that setting and NEVER change it.

Seating depth? As far as I'm concerned there is only one; JUST OFF THE LANDS. Yep, I don't waste time with anything else. So with that said and accomplished, it leaves me with only one thing to tune; THE TUNER, and it's the easiest thing in the world.

Hope this helps someone.

Later, Gene Beggs

 

[Ned Ludd]

Torque maybe? This has always been a puzzle that has eluded me. If you look at the rifle it seems like the vertical should be by far the dominant pattern. But in practice it’s not so much. This is surprising to me. There must be an answer but I’m not sure what it is. Maybe the vertical is more balanced than we think.

Unlike a model cantilever beam, the rifle barrel is not vibrating solely in the vertical plane (i.e. y-axis). I would guess the bullet torque has something to do with this. In my hands, groups go in and out both horizontal and vertical as the tuner is rotated. Presumably, this also reflects the effect of the tuner in both X- and Y-axis.

If a tuner and seating depth adjustment have a significant degree of overlap with respect to how they affect shot dispersion, shouldn't it be possible to achieve similarly small groups with the tuner at two noticeably different seating depths? If so, that would suggest that some of the effects are overlapping.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

So, straight line stocks would seem to be logical...What about the horizontal?

A high c/g like we see in sr designed rifles is not how I go about building a lr rifle. I want that rotation for PC. Im not trying to reduce or eliminate vibration, we need it to tune IMO. I do not know exactly what is happening to a barrel when the bullets traveling down it, but there is obviously a horizontal component (probably every direction) to the vibration, and you can tune the load to have the bullet exit at the time that component is dominant.

 

[Mulligan]

Several have asked whether you should do initial testing with or without the tuner installed. I say, definitely with the tuner installed and set to zero. It can be done either way but why bother and put more rounds than necessary down the tube.

When I chamber a new barrel, I also thread the muzzle for the tuner and conduct initial load testing with the tuner set to 'zero.' It seems a waste of time to do otherwise.

I shoot only short-range group with either my 220Beggs or 6Beggs in a 10.5 pound Hall Sporter. I use either Krieger or Bartlein barrels cut to 22 inches. I know what muzzle velocity to expect and obtain that with whatever powder I'm using at the time. I've used N133, pulldown 8208, H-322, LT-32, Benchmark, H4198 etc. They all work fine in either cartridge; same goes for the 22 and 6PPC. My 220 likes to shoot at 3500 to 3550 and the 6mm at 3330 to 3350 so there is no time wasted testing at any other velocities. Once I reach the desired velocity as shown by the Oehler 35 chronograph, I lock the Jones powder measure at that setting and NEVER change it.

Seating depth? As far as I'm concerned there is only one; JUST OFF THE LANDS. Yep, I don't waste time with anything else. So with that said and accomplished, it leaves me with only one thing to tune; THE TUNER, and it's the easiest thing in the world.

Hope this helps someone.

Later, Gene Beggs

That is very helpful, thank you
CW

 

[Terry]

Several have asked whether you should do initial testing with or without the tuner installed. I say, definitely with the tuner installed and set to zero. It can be done either way but why bother and put more rounds than necessary down the tube.

When I chamber a new barrel, I also thread the muzzle for the tuner and conduct initial load testing with the tuner set to 'zero.' It seems a waste of time to do otherwise.

I shoot only short-range group with either my 220Beggs or 6Beggs in a 10.5 pound Hall Sporter. I use either Krieger or Bartlein barrels cut to 22 inches. I know what muzzle velocity to expect and obtain that with whatever powder I'm using at the time. I've used N133, pulldown 8208, H-322, LT-32, Benchmark, H4198 etc. They all work fine in either cartridge; same goes for the 22 and 6PPC. My 220 likes to shoot at 3500 to 3550 and the 6mm at 3330 to 3350 so there is no time wasted testing at any other velocities. Once I reach the desired velocity as shown by the Oehler 35 chronograph, I lock the Jones powder measure at that setting and NEVER change it.

Seating depth? As far as I'm concerned there is only one; JUST OFF THE LANDS. Yep, I don't waste time with anything else. So with that said and accomplished, it leaves me with only one thing to tune; THE TUNER, and it's the easiest thing in the world.

Hope this helps someone.

Later, Gene Beggs

Gene

Does this apply to all calibers and ranges?

 

[dcali]

Unlike a model cantilever beam, the rifle barrel is not vibrating solely in the vertical plane (i.e. y-axis). I would guess the bullet torque has something to do with this. In my hands, groups go in and out both horizontal and vertical as the tuner is rotated. Presumably, this also reflects the effect of the tuner in both X- and Y-axis.

If a tuner and seating depth adjustment have a significant degree of overlap with respect to how they affect shot dispersion, shouldn't it be possible to achieve similarly small groups with the tuner at two noticeably different seating depths? If so, that would suggest that some of the effects are overlapping.

I think this is true, more or less. I’m a little hesitant to assume that seating depth and tuners are interchangable, but it certainly seems that way. The way I use my tuner is to do a coarse seating depth test and then dial a couple ticks either way from the best seating depth. It seems to work well. (I leave the tuner on and at an arbitrary zero for the initial testing - I see no reason to believe that removing it can do anything but hurt, and it’s more work to take it off.)

I haven’t bothered figuring out if I can assign a change in seating depth to a tick on the tuner. I suspect it’s not that direct a relationship, but who knows. It’s not like we really understand seating depth and how it works.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think this is true, more or less. I’m a little hesitant to assume that seating depth and tuners are interchangable, but it certainly seems that way. The way I use my tuner is to do a coarse seating depth test and then dial a couple ticks either way from the best seating depth. It seems to work well. (I leave the tuner on and at an arbitrary zero for the initial testing - I see no reason to believe that removing it can do anything but hurt, and it’s more work to take it off.)

I haven’t bothered figuring out if I can assign a change in seating depth to a tick on the tuner. I suspect it’s not that direct a relationship, but who knows. It’s not like we really understand seating depth and how it works.

This will likely be controversial, but I haven't chased the lands in a barrel in a long time.

 

[mikeeg02]

This will likely be controversial, but I haven't chased the lands in a barrel in a long time.

I dont typically either. But I've heard that can be bullet dependant. I've never shot a VLD type bullet, but understand that they typically require that. But that's also a generalization. Which as we all should know in this sport only gets you started

 

[butchlambert]

Roll Tide!!

 

[Puzzaz01]

Roll Tide!!

Alabama aka Creedmoor!!! No matter what you do it'll turn it out just fine.

Darrin

 

[Gene Beggs]

Gene

Does this apply to all calibers and ranges?

My 30 years of experience in benchrest have been limited to short-range (100 & 200 yd) group shooting. When I make a statement about something I try to remind others of this. I also try to remember to say, "In my opinion" or "In my experience" when I can't absolutely prove something.

Regarding my advice on seating depth, you asked, "Does this apply to all calibers and ranges?" No, probably not but if I was to begin experimenting with a new-to-me cartridge and bullet, 'Just off the lands" is where I would begin. There are several advantages to this; for one, there is no concern about extracting a loaded round if an 'emergency cease fire' is called.

I built my 100 yard tunnel fifteen years ago and I've done a lot of shooting out there. One thing I've learned that stands out above all else is seating depth; both how to do it and learning what works and what doesn't. Again, keep in mind that I'm a short-range group shooter, but it has been my experience that when I start at hard 'jam', and gradually increase the length of the seater stem in .005 increments, the horizontal abruptly disappears around .015 to .020 off of 'jam.' Continuing to push bullets back, again in .005 increments, to as much as .040 off jam appears to have no affect on horizontal.

Hope this helps someone.

 

[swd]

We need a new forum category for threads that need to pinned and archived forever!

 

[Mulligan]

My 30 years of experience in benchrest have been limited to short-range (100 & 200 yd) group shooting. When I make a statement about something I try to remind others of this. I also try to remember to say, "In my opinion" or "In my experience" when I can't absolutely prove something.

Regarding my advice on seating depth, you asked, "Does this apply to all calibers and ranges?" No, probably not but if I was to begin experimenting with a new-to-me cartridge and bullet, 'Just off the lands" is where I would begin. There are several advantages to this; for one, there is no concern about extracting a loaded round if an 'emergency cease fire' is called.

I built my 100 yard tunnel fifteen years ago and I've done a lot of shooting out there. One thing I've learned that stands out above all else is seating depth; both how to do it and learning what works and what doesn't. Again, keep in mind that I'm a short-range group shooter, but it has been my experience that when I start at hard 'jam', and gradually increase the length of the seater stem in .005 increments, the horizontal abruptly disappears around .015 to .020 off of 'jam.' Continuing to push bullets back, again in .005 increments, to as much as .040 off jam appears to have no affect on horizontal.

Hope this helps someone.

That’s pure gold
CW

 

[dcali]

Several have asked whether you should do initial testing with or without the tuner installed. I say, definitely with the tuner installed and set to zero. It can be done either way but why bother and put more rounds than necessary down the tube.

When I chamber a new barrel, I also thread the muzzle for the tuner and conduct initial load testing with the tuner set to 'zero.' It seems a waste of time to do otherwise.

I shoot only short-range group with either my 220Beggs or 6Beggs in a 10.5 pound Hall Sporter. I use either Krieger or Bartlein barrels cut to 22 inches. I know what muzzle velocity to expect and obtain that with whatever powder I'm using at the time. I've used N133, pulldown 8208, H-322, LT-32, Benchmark, H4198 etc. They all work fine in either cartridge; same goes for the 22 and 6PPC. My 220 likes to shoot at 3500 to 3550 and the 6mm at 3330 to 3350 so there is no time wasted testing at any other velocities. Once I reach the desired velocity as shown by the Oehler 35 chronograph, I lock the Jones powder measure at that setting and NEVER change it.

Seating depth? As far as I'm concerned there is only one; JUST OFF THE LANDS. Yep, I don't waste time with anything else. So with that said and accomplished, it leaves me with only one thing to tune; THE TUNER, and it's the easiest thing in the world.

Hope this helps someone.

Later, Gene Beggs

This mirrors my experience with long range bullets, more or less. Powder charge seems almost like an afterthought when using a tuner - I aim for something near max that gets a velocity that seems to work and then I leave it alone. Jammed almost always works, but I've found out -20 or so can often work. A coarse test of jammed, just off (-5 or so) and -20 has been a good way to find a baseline, and then it's all tuner.

This has been a dramatic improvement in load development time and ammunition spent over the grids of seating depth vs charge weight I did before my tuner enlightenment.

 

[Terry]

My 30 years of experience in benchrest have been limited to short-range (100 & 200 yd) group shooting. When I make a statement about something I try to remind others of this. I also try to remember to say, "In my opinion" or "In my experience" when I can't absolutely prove something.

Regarding my advice on seating depth, you asked, "Does this apply to all calibers and ranges?" No, probably not but if I was to begin experimenting with a new-to-me cartridge and bullet, 'Just off the lands" is where I would begin. There are several advantages to this; for one, there is no concern about extracting a loaded round if an 'emergency cease fire' is called.

I built my 100 yard tunnel fifteen years ago and I've done a lot of shooting out there. One thing I've learned that stands out above all else is seating depth; both how to do it and learning what works and what doesn't. Again, keep in mind that I'm a short-range group shooter, but it has been my experience that when I start at hard 'jam', and gradually increase the length of the seater stem in .005 increments, the horizontal abruptly disappears around .015 to .020 off of 'jam.' Continuing to push bullets back, again in .005 increments, to as much as .040 off jam appears to have no affect on horizontal.

Hope this helps someone.

Thanks

 

[Alex Wheeler]

My 30 years of experience in benchrest have been limited to short-range (100 & 200 yd) group shooting. When I make a statement about something I try to remind others of this. I also try to remember to say, "In my opinion" or "In my experience" when I can't absolutely prove something.

Regarding my advice on seating depth, you asked, "Does this apply to all calibers and ranges?" No, probably not but if I was to begin experimenting with a new-to-me cartridge and bullet, 'Just off the lands" is where I would begin. There are several advantages to this; for one, there is no concern about extracting a loaded round if an 'emergency cease fire' is called.

I built my 100 yard tunnel fifteen years ago and I've done a lot of shooting out there. One thing I've learned that stands out above all else is seating depth; both how to do it and learning what works and what doesn't. Again, keep in mind that I'm a short-range group shooter, but it has been my experience that when I start at hard 'jam', and gradually increase the length of the seater stem in .005 increments, the horizontal abruptly disappears around .015 to .020 off of 'jam.' Continuing to push bullets back, again in .005 increments, to as much as .040 off jam appears to have no affect on horizontal.

Hope this helps someone.

If Im reading this right you dont find anything that shoot well until you get off jam at least .015"? Do you know how far in the lands your typical hard jam is? Have you seen this with long bullets or is this based only on sr br type bullets? Thanks!