Barrel Nut Disadvantages?

[whatsupdoc]

I'm fairly certain a barrel nut setup can be made to shoot just as well as a shouldered
setup. Just because it has not happened yet does not mean that it is not possible.

The issue is that the shouldered barrel is the current defacto standard for accuracy
and smiths and shooters alike have no good reason to change or do the
research needed to validate or invalidate the accuracy of a barrel nut setup.

Most of the barrel nuts I have seen are thin walled and are machined to be vissually appealing, that may not be best for a mechanical joint.

But should a barrel nut setup start winning matches there will be a massive run on nuts.

 

[DShortt]

It’s been done many times for a long time

OK, so what are the results? Any comparison to barrel nuts that were not secured with LocTite? Any sort of testing done such as the 'barrier strike' mentioned above? Or was it simply done for convenience

 

[Rat Rifle]

OK, so what are the results? Any comparison to barrel nuts that were not secured with LocTite? Any sort of testing done such as the 'barrier strike' mentioned above? Or was it simply done for convenience

No testing that I know of. Done mostly for the convenience of repeatable barrel changes.

 

[DLT]

I think this is an excellent example. My question would be if you change the way you clamped the head down in your hopped up Chevy would it change the quarter mile time?

My guess is no it wouldn't make any difference or you wouldn't be able to prove any difference because as factors go in quarter mile times, the head bolts are way down the list in factors that would make a difference.

Eh. If it stayed together or not would be the difference. That’s in high high hp engines pushing it to the absolute limits where it would make a difference. Truthfully it would make a difference in how evenly torqued it was but would you see it on the 1/4 time in your Kia Soul ? Probably not lol. Let’s get back to barrel talk

 

[DLT]

I think 100yds would work fine for the test. The difference in tunes needed for long range are just tunes, you can still measure the raw accuracy at 100. With a good action and good job on the barrel, I think you will see no difference in the accuracy. But it would be interesting test to see.

I agree with Alex. I couldn’t imagine there being any difference

 

[INTJ]

This might be a discussion for a new thread, but assuming you are using a suitable bullet for 600 yards, what would compel the bullet that shoots into one hole with an excellent ES not to perform at the same MOA level at 600 yards as it did at 100 yards.

The major thing that comes to mind is conditions.

Not totally sure but we see it enough with hunting rifles that our standard for load development for customer rifles requires shooting at 500 - 650 yds. We commonly see 3" groups or better at 650, and those loads will usually shoot 1/2 MOA at 100. However, not every 1/2 MOA or better 100 yd load will shoot at 650.

It could be bullet inconsistency, actual barrel twist, etc. Conditions are not usually a huge factor at 500-650 yds in terms of hunting rifle accuracy. The range we shoot at is fairly wind protected, and if it's windy we don't shoot.

Concerning LRBR rifles, the only useful info I can get at 200-300 yds is powder nodes. I need to to tune at the distance I am shooting. A 200-300 yd load might hold up at 600, but at least for me, it doesn't at 1000. However, that 3" group I am so happy with for a hunting rifle is a disaster for a BR rifle and tells me I am not tuned.......especially during a tuning session which is always shot in excellent conditions.

Anyway, the if the barrel nut test is shot at 600 or beyond, using the LRBR wind mitigation tuning method, there will be no wondering about how well the load will hold up at distance, and that is a big part of what I'd like to see.

I'd also like to see the test with a long heavy barrel and a shorter lighter barrel, as well as a couple different types of barrel nuts. If I had time I could do this test myself, but with competition season in full swing and the heavy workload at work, I just don't have time to chamber and shoot anything but competition guns or customer guns right now.

 

[DLT]

I would'nt because I know better. I'm a dyed in the wool Savage
action guy. I own 3, and I am a wild catter, that shoots my own
creations against some top shooters in the state of Pa. I've shot
my creative heavy barrel nut jobs in steel match's with good
results. I changed games to short range score, and with the same
equipment. I jumped in to get educated. I had some mid pack
finishes and started in a new direction. I do my own barrels, and
if not, I have good friend, fellow shooter, and gunsmith, Ethan Lam
do my specs.....Point being; with the same barrels with low round
count, I cut them back and had them shouldered. I can do this because
of the thicker than standard barrels I use for Savage. At this point
my scores are better, and the only nut jobs left are my fire forming
barrels on a beater action.

Note that getting rid of the nut gets rid of a variable. A shouldered
set up is only 2 pieces (male/female). Nut jobs are three. You now
entered another female component !!

Ether way, I have shot them side by side under match conditions.
Other then my hunting rifles, all match rifles will be shouldered.

Here is one of my 1.200" Brux barrels cut for a nut. My original SA284
now my fire forming barrel.

See now that’s interesting

 

[Old Navy]

If the title of this thread had been The Pros and Cons of Barrel Nuts we would not of had the pissing match last night. I am glad to see it is more civil this morning. Thanks to Alex for steering it in the right direction.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Eh. If it stayed together or not would be the difference. That’s in high high hp engines pushing it to the absolute limits where it would make a difference. Truthfully it would make a difference in how evenly torqued it was but would you see it on the 1/4 time in your Kia Soul ? Probably not lol. Let’s get back to barrel talk

My point exactly.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'm still interested to hear if anyone commenting has actually made any nut barrels of any quantity. Any small data test would be statistically insignificant. As far as I can tell, I'm one of the only people discussing this here that has any quantity of real world data on the performance of nut barrels.

 

[DShortt]

Well we could ask Savage ......

 

[DShortt]

Well we could ask Savage ......

And it looks like they do well if you consider Gold, Silver and Bronze metals in World Competition of value.
Are they shooting rigs with shouldered barrels?

 

[DShortt]

And it looks like they do well if you consider Gold, Silver and Bronze metals in World Competition of value.
Are they shooting rigs with shouldered barrels?

Apparently they are not. So there's that.

I'd say the question is already answered unless someone has contradictory information.

 

[AlNyhus]

What many miss is what needs to be tested is the mechanical link between the barrel and the action. That being, which is better in securing the barrel so there is zero movement under the stress of the cartridge firing.

We are assuming the all mating surfaces on the action, barrel, and nut are machined truly straight and square.

You could do it with any good consistent shooting rifle, with an emphasis on consistency.

I have the means to do this. The Bat M action would be a perfect test bed. I could shoot one of my decent 30BR barrels as in, then remove it, turn a sufficient amount of length to extend the thread. Machine a nut to fit it. Put it together, setting the headspace with the nut, and see how it shoots.

Jackie, a good test for joint stability would be to simply load the barrel sideways with each joint type and see if there was any POI change. Heck, a whack with a rubber mallet would work....Dusty alluded to this earlier.

I've got a good extra barrel fitted up for my Panda that I'd contribute for this test. It's chambered in 6BR-.100 right now. I've got a new .273 neck reamer on order but unfortunately it's still 10-12 weeks out.

As you know, I'm no stranger to this style of testing from the race engine dyno testing and development I'm involved in. To make meaningful progress means leaving predetermined results (an assured outcome) at the door and letting the data gathered lead you to the results....not the other way around. And not everyone is wired to problem solve in this way. Thin skinned types that are resistant to change really struggle.

If anyone has a 'no turn' ( .273-.274)1.560 Lapua 6BR reamer with no more than .030 freebore and the back end around .4720-.4725, let me know.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[jackieschmidt]

Al, I have everything needed.

It’s probably a waste of time. As you can see by many of the post, there are those who can’t seem grasp the fact that you are trying to ascertain the mechanical viability of the barrel to action joint. The distance is purely academic.

It has to be done with the same barrel. Like I said, install a good barrel with the shoulder. Get it shooting as good as you can, take it off, length the thread for the nut, reinstall, setting the headspace with the nut, then tighten with the same torque as the shouldered joint, head back to the range.

This would all be done with a real Benchrest Rifle, shooting over flags, with the best in components. For something like this, you have to account for every shot.

 

[DShortt]

I guess I missed something. I thought the question was if shooters and rifles fitted with a barrel installed with a nut could compete against shooters and rifles fitted with barrels installed with a shoulder. Now we're discussing precision instead of accuracy. What about all the 'what does the target show' remarks?

Seems to me that you guys are going to need a machine rest and a tunnel to go about it the way you are proposing.

And then what does that prove? A Texas Warehouse situation?

Again, I've no bias or 'dog in the fight'. But what is the criteria here because the way this is headed it's two separate discussions. One with a very small group under controlled circumstances and one with a very large group under natural circumstances.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I guess I missed something. I thought the question was if shooters and rifles fitted with a barrel installed with a nut could compete against shooters and rifles fitted with barrels installed with a shoulder. Now we're discussing precision instead of accuracy. What about all the 'what does the target show' remarks?

Seems to me that you guys are going to need a machine rest and a tunnel to go about it the way you are proposing.

And then what does that prove? A Texas Warehouse situation?

Again, I've no bias or 'dog in the fight'. But what is the criteria here because the way this is headed it's two separate discussions. One with a very small group under controlled circumstances and one with a very large group under natural circumstances.

A good benchrest shooter can find any issue at 100yds like a shifting scope, shifting bedding, hard sand in rests, etc that a long range rifle can never find. Thats why me, jackie and al are trying to get the test lined out that will mean something.

 

[INTJ]

A good benchrest shooter can find any issue at 100yds like a shifting scope, shifting bedding, hard sand in rests, etc that a long range rifle can never find. Thats why me, jackie and al are trying to get the test lined out that will mean something.

All that stuff shows up in spades at 1000 yds, at least with a LRBR rifle. In fact, it's even more critical. Long range also lets us see if the particular load is just another short range wonder or one that holds up at long range.

Long range with a full-on LRBR rifle is the only way to definitely answer the question.

 

[LHSmith]

It has to be all about the arrow and not the injun.

 

[DShortt]

Is it really accurate to judge one shooting discipline by another though? Just because a shooter can use a combination shooting benchrest should that matter at ELR? And vice versa? Shooters in those disciplines don't even favor the same chamberings. Not to mention PRS, rimfire and all the others.

There isn't 'One ring to rule them all' so far as I can tell. If someone sees it another way please present your observations. I'm here to learn something new.