Barrel heat management in F-TR

[Ned Ludd]

I know it isn't allowed to load more than one round. I've been aware of this from day one. I took Greg's post to say, just like it's written, " Firing rounds from a magazine is against the rules in F class". This could be viewed as multiple or single. Even if you drop the mag after every shot and place a round in it, that's still, firing rounds from a magazine. Which is legal. So, long story short, I didn't want the OP to be lead to believe it's against the rules to "load from a magazine".

Sorry I didn't make that clearer. Because the OP had already mentioned firing multiple rounds from the mag, I didn't perceive the need to better clarify that statement. Loading a single round at a time from a mag is perfectly legal the way I have always interpreted the rules; loading multiple rounds sequentially from a full magazine is not. For many F-Class shooters, this is not a concern because the rounds are often much too long to ever fit in an unmodified mag. However, it clear that in certain cases such as the OP's, it does become a concern and clarification of the rule is important.

Clunker - FWIW you might try feeding rounds on top of different types of magazines to test whether one might allow you to single feed rounds properly. In several different F-TR rifles in both .223 and .308 I have found that AICS steel mags allow me to drop a round in on top of the mag and subsequently close the bolt with no feeding issues. More recently, I found that Magpul (polymer) mags also seem to allow single feeding rounds ok in the .308s. Otherwise, buying a compatible mag follower to allow single feeding would probably be your best bet.

 

[clunker]

What do you do to get a 5 shot group this way ? Those fliers could be as simple as you losing your rhythm when you have to mess around with loading like that ? Also,are you saying the bolt locks up differently with the slight pressure from the mag ?

Yep! I considered that and even assumed it was my skill that was the problem. I started a thread a while back to get advice on what my problem was. I just assumed that I owned a 3-shot rifle. A great gun that is capable of 0.5" MOA in 3-shot groups that would open up after the 3rd shot. The 4th shot in the magazine was almost always a flier. Now, I load four rounds, but only shoot three, then reload (always keeping one round in the magazine). I don't know specifically why it works, but it definitely works. The pic of my 20-shot string at 100 yds at the beginning of this thread is tighter than most of my previous 4-shot groups by using that method. That involves sitting up, grabbing 3 more rounds from the ammo box and loading them, then getting back into position. Keep in mind that I only started shooting in March, and it was factory ammo.

I probably need someone with more experience to help determine the exact cause of this scenario. Based on my observations, there might be pressure on the bolt when there are any rounds left in the magazine. You can literally feel it as the magazine clips into place. BP1 and ED3 resolved the problem. I did some quick research, and the Bobsled single shot follower corrects the Tikka hand-feed issue for $20. Apparently, it is a well-known issue that I never knew about until now.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I was thinking about constructing something that stays in the magazine and guides a hand-fed round into the chamber. Sounds like that is what you're describing. Even better if someone already manufactures one.

Does your Tika use the AR style magazine or is it Tika's own? I had this style single shot magazine feed block for my Mossberg MVP and it worked well. Don't know if they make one for the Tika though.
https://raggedhole.com/collections/single-shot-loading-blocks-1

 

[clunker]

Does your Tika use the AR style magazine or is it Tika's own? I had this style single shot magazine feed block for my Mossberg MVP and it worked well. Don't know if they make one for the Tika though.
https://raggedhole.com/collections/single-shot-loading-blocks-1

The magazine is whatever came stock with the T3 and T3x. Holds 4 rounds in .223 and 3 rounds in 6.5CM. Most ammo feeds perfectly, but some are a bit finicky. Not sure why Tikka made a rifle that cannot be hand-fed without modification, but I'm sure they had a good reason.

 

[kzin]

Dean is exactly correct. You most certainly can load from a magazine but in High Power competition, with the exception of the rapid fire courses in Service Rifle, only one round in the magazine is allowed.

Now, about this barrel heat thing; the only item that you can use to counteract the barrel heating up too quickly is a heavier barrel. Heavy barrels heat up more slowly than thin barrels, and for the same number of rounds fired in the same time, they will cool faster than thinner barrels because they have a larger surface through which to dissipate heat.

You cannot put a fan beside you to cool be barrel and you cannot use that gadget that was shown earlier; they are in direct contravention of rule 3.18:


"3.18 General—All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden. The Match Director, Official Referee, Jury Chairman or Supervisor shall have the right to examine a shooter’s equipment or apparel. The responsibility shall be upon the competitor to submit questionable equipment and apparel for official inspection and approval in sufficient time prior to the beginning of a match so that it will not inconvenience either the competitor or the official."

Take that to mean that if the item you want to use is not listed in the rules, it's most probably controversial. If you're bringing it to the line because it will make it easier, or provide comfort, or help in any way, it's definitely illegal.

Check out rule 6.3 about using umbrellas and individual covers. Spoiler alert, they're not permitted.

So everything not specifically permitted is forbidden?
- mirage shield
- eci with barrel cooling function
- scope bubble level
- dozens of other things that are used all the time but 'not mentioned in these rules'
- I don't see any mention in the rules that I can even have a towel at the line to wipe sweat or rain off me and my stuff

Seems like a terrible rule. Ridiculous if taken literally and meaningless if not.

 

[ED3]

I wish I could give the forum member proper credit, but I can't remember who made the suggestion in another thread. It turns out that as long as there is one round in the magazine, there seems to be a small amount of pressure on the bolt. When the fourth cartridge is loaded in the chamber, there are no longer any rounds to apply pressure. You can tell there's a difference simply by inserting a magazine with the bolt open, and inserting again with the bolt closed. It requires more force to insert with the bolt closed. I have to either have at least one additional round in the magazine, or I have load each round, one at a time. Otherwise, I can't consistently keep groups under MOA.

Thanks for the additional info everyone. Rules that prohibit the use of additional equipment are more along the lines of what I would have expected for competitive shooting. However, after some googling and watching some youtube, I see that mirage shields are quite popular in competition. I guess I'll just have to avoid competitions when temps get above 80*F, and keep the barrel cool between strings.



I was thinking about constructing something that stays in the magazine and guides a hand-fed round into the chamber. Sounds like that is what you're describing. Even better if someone already manufactures one.

https://tikkaperformance.com/index.php?_route_=tikka-sled

 

[clunker]

So everything not specifically permitted is forbidden?
- mirage shield
- eci with barrel cooling function
- scope bubble level
- dozens of other things that are used all the time but 'not mentioned in these rules'
- I don't see any mention in the rules that I can even have a towel at the line to wipe sweat or rain off me and my stuff

Seems like a terrible rule. Ridiculous if taken literally and meaningless if not.

Your point is well taken. I can see both sides of the argument. It seems ridiculous that I cannot protect my chromoly barrel in the event that it rains during the competition. At the same time, no one should be allowed to enter a competition looking like Inspector Gadget with every trick up his sleeve. My approach to target shooting will be simple. Just ask the event coordinator. I imagine that each range will have its own restrictions, and I will respect those rules to the best of my ability while also trying to prevent my barrel from melting. I would be entering with a rifle weight that is barely more than half the limit (10 lbs vs 18 lbs). Shouldn't that count for something?

 

[dolek]

Yep! I considered that and even assumed it was my skill that was the problem. I started a thread a while back to get advice on what my problem was. I just assumed that I owned a 3-shot rifle. A great gun that is capable of 0.5" MOA in 3-shot groups that would open up after the 3rd shot. The 4th shot in the magazine was almost always a flier. Now, I load four rounds, but only shoot three, then reload (always keeping one round in the magazine). I don't know specifically why it works, but it definitely works. The pic of my 20-shot string at 100 yds at the beginning of this thread is tighter than most of my previous 4-shot groups by using that method. That involves sitting up, grabbing 3 more rounds from the ammo box and loading them, then getting back into position. Keep in mind that I only started shooting in March, and it was factory ammo.

I probably need someone with more experience to help determine the exact cause of this scenario. Based on my observations, there might be pressure on the bolt when there are any rounds left in the magazine. You can literally feel it as the magazine clips into place. BP1 and ED3 resolved the problem. I did some quick research, and the Bobsled single shot follower corrects the Tikka hand-feed issue for $20. Apparently, it is a well-known issue that I never knew about until now.

Glad you got it figured out. Sounds like a finicky rig but you are gaining on it.

 

[swd]

If your just getting started out at club matchs the MD's are probably going to give you a lot of leway. I doubt multiple mag feeding but some sort of cooler to keep from smoking your sporter barrel, maybe. I suspect once you get your feet wet and get bit by the addiction you'll be stepping up to a more competitve rife anyways...

 

[Lefty Trigger]

There, ED3 has the answer to you single feed problem...

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

So everything not specifically permitted is forbidden?
- mirage shield
- eci with barrel cooling function
- scope bubble level
- dozens of other things that are used all the time but 'not mentioned in these rules'
- I don't see any mention in the rules that I can even have a towel at the line to wipe sweat or rain off me and my stuff

Seems like a terrible rule. Ridiculous if taken literally and meaningless if not.

Lots of people lose sight of the fact that F-class rules are an extension of long established rules governing High Power. As with everything in life, there is a history to things, and in this case, there is a long history of High Power competition where things have been tried, adopted or rejected over time.

- Mirage shield. That has been in use for a very long time in High Power as barrel bands and such. They would roll them out over the barrel and attach it to the front sight. That has been in use longer than I've been competing in High Power (37 years). The F-class mirage shields are nothing new and have long been accepted.

-ECI with barrel cooling function. I don't know about you, but I've never seen someone shoot at the target with the ECI inserted. At any rate that is not a new item as gadgets to cool the barrel after shooting have been in use for a long time. In my early days of F-class I had a "bubble machine" (from aquarium stores) that I would attack to surgically altered ECI and which I would insert in the chamber after I finished shooting. We have people throw cold wet towels on the barrel, and we even had one guy shooting some liquid nitrogen through the bore after he got off the line. What you do AFTER you shoot is irrelevant as long as it's safe and does not interfere with shooters on the line or range operation and match management.

-Scope bubble level. Levels are nothing new, they have been around on target sights for a long time.

As with any rule, it can be carried to extremes but most match directors have some understanding of the rules and the intent of the rule. The again, I have seen people have their rifles not make weight because of the towel placed on the stock.

The way it works is if an MD says something is prohibited, your recourse is to appeal to the jury to see if you can get a reversal. Failing that, you can file a protest with the NRA and see what they say. Who knows, your unconventional use of a towel may make its way into the rules at some point.

Right now, I am studying the parameters of Rule 23 and want to make sure I understand it all. I am assembling a setup for that to try out at the next match to see how it goes.

 

[kzin]

Lots of people lose sight of the fact that F-class rules are an extension of long established rules governing High Power. As with everything in life, there is a history to things, and in this case, there is a long history of High Power competition where things have been tried, adopted or rejected over time.

- Mirage shield. That has been in use for a very long time in High Power as barrel bands and such. They would roll them out over the barrel and attach it to the front sight. That has been in use longer than I've been competing in High Power (37 years). The F-class mirage shields are nothing new and have long been accepted.

-ECI with barrel cooling function. I don't know about you, but I've never seen someone shoot at the target with the ECI inserted. At any rate that is not a new item as gadgets to cool the barrel after shooting have been in use for a long time. In my early days of F-class I had a "bubble machine" (from aquarium stores) that I would attack to surgically altered ECI and which I would insert in the chamber after I finished shooting. We have people throw cold wet towels on the barrel, and we even had one guy shooting some liquid nitrogen through the bore after he got off the line. What you do AFTER you shoot is irrelevant as long as it's safe and does not interfere with shooters on the line or range operation and match management.

-Scope bubble level. Levels are nothing new, they have been around on target sights for a long time.

As with any rule, it can be carried to extremes but most match directors have some understanding of the rules and the intent of the rule. The again, I have seen people have their rifles not make weight because of the towel placed on the stock.

The way it works is if an MD says something is prohibited, your recourse is to appeal to the jury to see if you can get a reversal. Failing that, you can file a protest with the NRA and see what they say. Who knows, your unconventional use of a towel may make its way into the rules at some point.

Right now, I am studying the parameters of Rule 23 and want to make sure I understand it all. I am assembling a setup for that to try out at the next match to see how it goes.

But you made a reasonable argument from the text of the rule that anything not mentioned in the rules is illegal, period. Simple.

Following that, regardless of how long a thing has been accepted it SHOULD be illegal because it is still not mentioned in the rules.

How do we resolve these accepted but unmentioned things with a strict adherence to 3.18?

If a mirage shield can become legal without being mentioned so can a fan on your barrel.

If an old thing can have become accepted without being mentioned then a new thing can become accepted without being mentioned.

I can accept a very strict view or a very open view but not open for the past but strict for the future.

 

[dcali]

3.18, in my view, pertains to non-rifle equipment. Things like weather stations, radios, and other odds and ends. A mirage shield is part of the rifle. A level is part of the rifle. A barrel cooling device is not. Could you build one into a rifle? Probably. If you started to see various gadgets built into a rifle to subvert the rules- well, that’s what the “spirit of the rules” bit is for.

High power is ancient. You cannot write it all down in a form that will make any sense. Like any human endeavor, context matters. The spirit of high power is and has always been a format for competition designed to teach fundamentals that are applicable to military marksmanship in an idealized environment. It’s literally why the NRA was founded. You can’t just ignore that history when interpreting the rules.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

3.18, in my view, pertains to non-rifle equipment. Things like weather stations, radios, and other odds and ends. A mirage shield is part of the rifle. A level is part of the rifle. A barrel cooling device is not. Could you build one into a rifle? Probably. If you started to see various gadgets built into a rifle to subvert the rules- well, that’s what the “spirit of the rules” bit is for.

High power is ancient. You cannot write it all down in a form that will make any sense. Like any human endeavor, context matters. The spirit of high power is and has always been a format for competition designed to teach fundamentals that are applicable to military marksmanship in an idealized environment. It’s literally why the NRA was founded. You can’t just ignore that history when interpreting the rules.

I like that. There are a few things that you can mount on the rifle which are forbidden. Lasers come to mind. But over all, it's a good way to look at it, as long as your rifle makes weight with your accoutrements. A pop-up tent over your position is forbidden.

For the purposes of this thread, the easiest way to deal with barrel heat is to use a heavier barrel. There is no reason to try to introduce gadgets to help deal with the heat and stretch or break the rules. Saying that you can't afford to buy a decent barrel for the game is NOT a reason to ignore the rules, unless all you want to do is shoot "out of competition" except in winter.

 

[Taildrag15X]

What’s against the rules about all the dust covers on the line now?

It is covered here, not a new Rule by any means...

6.3 Shelter—The firing points may be protected with a roof but may not be wholly or partly enclosed. Competitors must be exposed to prevailing winds. This does not preclude the construction of ranges within areas surrounded or partially surrounded by safety walls or structures designed for the suppression of sound. Umbrellas or other types of temporary individual shelters are not permitted.

 

[Taildrag15X]

I'm not saying it's not and I'm not trying to start an argument but, point out to me where in the rules it says it's illegal. I'm sure you saw the picture of the rain cover that was set up at nationals that the shooter had to remove. I've looked through the rules and I can't find anything that specifically addresses this. Maybe I missed something?

6.3 Shelter—The firing points may be protected with a roof but may not be wholly or partly enclosed. Competitors must be exposed to prevailing winds. This does not preclude the construction of ranges within areas surrounded or partially surrounded by safety walls or structures designed for the suppression of sound. Umbrellas or other types of temporary individual shelters are not permitted.

 

[JRS]

Thicker barrels will always heat-up at a slower rate than their thinner counterpart. Thicker barrels also give-up that heat at a slower rate. As the surface of the thicker barrel cools, that loss of heat is quickly replaced with the heat migrating from the center of that steel. A thinner barrel will always cool at a faster rate.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

6.3 Shelter—The firing points may be protected with a roof but may not be wholly or partly enclosed. Competitors must be exposed to prevailing winds. This does not preclude the construction of ranges within areas surrounded or partially surrounded by safety walls or structures designed for the suppression of sound. Umbrellas or other types of temporary individual shelters are not permitted.

Yeah, I mentioned rule 6.3 in post #38 on this thread.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Thicker barrels will always heat-up at a slower rate than their thinner counterpart. Thicker barrels also give-up that heat at a slower rate. As the surface of the thicker barrel cools, that loss of heat is quickly replaced with the heat migrating from the center of that steel. A thinner barrel will always cool at a faster rate.

The operative words in my comparison of the cooling rates of thick versus thin barrels are: "FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF ROUNDS IN THE SAME TIMEFRAME." Thick cools faster because of the increased surface.

If I compare the cooling rate of a thick barrel at say 190degrees compared to a thin barrel also at 190 degrees, that is meaningless to us. But if I compare a thick barrel through which 22 rounds have been fired in 12 minutes to a thin barrel through which 22 rounds have been fired also in 12 minutes, you will see that the thick barrel will be back to local conditions faster than the thin barrel. There's the added bonus that the thick barrel did not get as hot as the thin barrel.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The operative words in my comparison of the cooling rates of thick versus thin barrels are: "FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF ROUNDS IN THE SAME TIMEFRAME." Thick cools faster because of the increased surface.

The cooling rate is based on the surface area:volume ratio of the barrel, not just the surface area. The surface area:volume ratio for a thinner contour barrel will be notably more favorable for cooling than the heavier barrel, but as you pointed out, the thinner barrel will reach a higher temperature for a specified number of shots. The thicker barrel will both gain and lose heat more slowly, but doesn't have as far to go to cool down to ambient temp because it doesn't heat up as much to begin with.

In a match, the barrel is going to heat up no matter what you do, because we have to shoot at a rate that doesn't allow complete cooling in between shots. However, unless you have to shoot again immediately, the 30 min or so between relays is usually enough to bring the barrel temp back down. So I'm usually more concerned with how high the temperature goes, less so with how fast it cools off. In this regard the heavier contour barrel wins hands down. The heavier barrel is also less likely to undergo major shifts in POI as it heats up.