Barnes bullets

[Pyscodog]

I know that Barnes makes a pretty good hunting bullet but it seems they kick my tail getting them to shoot accurately. Meaning under an inch at 100yds. My friend says seat them deep and run them hard. He also said before I shoot them I need to clean any copper fouling from the barrel from previous rounds. Something about the copper in the Barnes doesn't get along with copper from other brands of bullets. Any truth to any of this?

 

[searcher]

I have been shooting Barnes bullets (both varmint bullets and the big-game TSX and TTSX) in over a dozen rifles for many years. I also shot a lot of other brands of the copper bullets. There could be some truth about the differences in the copper in the bullets causing bad behavior, though I have not encountered it - but I also don't let much copper build up in my bores. I have tested loads, alternating between Barnes and leaded bullets with no issues seen affecting accuracy when shooting the Barnes again - so I'd tend to think that should not be much of a concern, if at all.

One thing I found to be universally true with all the loads I tried in all the calibers - and that is that copper bullets are much more "powder picky" than lead core bullets. Because I have tested the Barnes with not only my rifles, but have dialed in loads for many of my buddy's rifles in the same calibers, patterns appeared with powders that shot well in multiple rifles of the same caliber with the Barnes. For example, 7 MM Rem Mag and Reloader 22, which shot the best of EIGHT powders I tried to get my first 7 Mag to shoot. Before that powder, I couldn't get better than about 3/4" - with some powders shooting 3" MOA. The Rel. 22 shot 120, 140 and 150 grain TTSX into roughly 3/8 MOA. It did similarly in three other rifles. Seeing how powder finicky these bullets are, I really don't know how accurate I can get them. I just stop once I get to under 1/2 MOA, except for my varmint rigs where I want 1/3" MOA (using the Varmint Grenades).

There are many variations in loading technique to attain accuracy with a load. some focus on seating depth first, others focus on powder first, etc. I can tell you with great confidence that the typical Barnes bullet will favor ONE powder far above all others and you may have to try several to find it. With lead-core bullet loads, I often wrestle with which of two (or three!) great loads shot better. That is seldom the case with the copper bullets. More often than not - a lot of powders shoot "O.K.", if not poor. But there will one (two if real lucky) that will shoot well inside that 1/2" MOA that I seek. These bullets do like to "jump", so yes - seat them rather deep - and I'd suggest using Barnes seating depths to start. Barnes, I think, did far more testing than most bullet maker manuals on various rifles for accuracy before recommending powders. They typically don't list the "20" or so powders many manuals will. They only list several which apparently were the best in most rifles. And it is refreshing that usually, one of those few powders will work the best.

What caliber(s) are you working with?

 

[Pyscodog]

The rifle is a CA Mesa in 308 Win.

 

[SeabeeKen]

Been hunting with barnes tsx for over 30 years and dozens of deer with several rifles. Load them .050 off the lands to start. Use powder that is normally accurate or a slightly faster powder. All of my rifles like them at .050 except my 280ai which likes .030. Also, use the light bullets. I use 110 in my 308 and its a hammer in the 308 on deer
Never seen the different copper issue.
If barnes wont shoot, try hammers. They are the easiest bullet ive ever tuned

 

[searcher]

The way I approach the lead free bullet load work up is I look at what powder Barnes accuracy load is for the bullet I'm looking at. I try a span of powders with distinctly different burn rates, not initially trying two that are very close (like Reloader 15 and Varget). With a 150 TTSX, for example in .308, I'd try H4985, Reloader 15 and W748. Almost certainly, you will see whether the gun is leaning towards a certain burn speed. If I wanted (or needed) to refine, I'd try a few powders if available, more near the burn speed of what shot best. I used to just try a bunch of powders listed in manuals, many of which were near the same burn speed and none typically shot appreciably better than the other. But a GOOD load can be tweaked with a substitute powder of close burn speed. For example, if Reloader 15 was best - maybe try Varget, etc.. In some of my rifles, finding a truly great load started off with a struggle until I made some big powder burn rate speed changes. If you don't have a burn rate chart - you can probably download one from somewhere - if not the powder companies. All said, getting the Barnes to shoot can be a bit more work (as you found) due to trying perhaps several powders. They are all capable of great accuracy once you find what works. I have been where you are now. Persevere.

 

[Gary in MD]

The Barnes TTSX shoot great for me, no trouble finding accurate loads.
Is the rifle in question already proven to be accurate?
Clean it real good, start with bullets .050” off the rifling, and I’ve found that they like to be pushed fast.

 

[243winxb]

CFE 223*
Look for a smokeless powder* that contains a Copper Fouling Eraser.

Tin Dioxide is listed in some smokeless powders MSDS . There are others.

IMR Enduron powders (discontinued) used Bismuth as a decopper agent. I tried 2 of them. A lot dirtier then normal IMR powders.

Barnes' specially formulated CR-10 Copper Solvent effectively removes copper fouling and powder residue

List the copper reducing powders please....

Can anybody list the powders known to possess the copper fowling reducing chemicals? I know of CFE223, TAC, IMR4166. I'd like to incorporate them into more of my reloading, if their burn speeds are appropriate for the caliber. Thanks!

www.thehighroad.org

The early history of all coppers bullets had problems with fouling. Took many years to cut the extra rings into the bullets. Less bearing surface in touch with the barrel, less fouling. This helped some.

Rough factory barrels are going to collect copper.
By using David Tubb's FinalFinish & FinalFinish TMS Bullet Kits, you will experience better accuracy, reduced fouling and easier barrel clean up.

 

[lotech]

I've yet to find any Barnes bullets that haven't been accurate in my hunting rifles: a Cooper .270, a NULA .308, and a NULA 7x61 Sharpe & Hart. I treat them like any other bullet during load development and try three different OALs, with the first pretty close to the lands (certainly not touching). I use Hodgdon Extreme powders; H4350 in the .270, H4895 in the .308, an dH4831 in the 7x61. Yes, I've tried many, many other powders and have probably done too much load development. The 7x61 is on its third barrel.

As for copper fouling, I've found no need to remove 100% of the copper. As long as accuracy is intact, I do a normal cleaning. I've yet to see a difference in accuracy due to copper fouling when shooting the Barnes bullets followed by conventional jacketed bullets.

 

[Chestnut]

I've gotten Barnes to shoot well out of 2 AR platform rifles. All 4 loads below are shooting in the 0.5 moa area which i usually stop at because I don't need more than that for the shooting I do. I never messed with seating depth on these loads. I just seated to COAL and shot them.
.308 Win
130 TTSX & H335
150 TTSX & H335
5.56x45
62 TSX & V133
70TSX & A2230
I'm thoroughly impressed with the 5.56 loads as they are shooting great out of a 12.5" barrel on a pistol platform. I could probably squeeze more accuracy out of it If I used better brass and was more consistent with my components. The groups are good enough so I don't see the point to spend the time.

 

[Pyscodog]

One question asked "was it an accurate rifle"? I don't know as I bought it used. Owner said it had a box of ammo shot through it. I always take that with a grain of salt. But, looking at the bolt face,lugs and condition of the bore, its looks like very few rounds have been through it. I've only shot this rifle twice. First loads were with Varget and 168SMK's and accuracy was horrible. More like a pattern than a group. Second time out was with the Barnes TTSX and Tac powder and the bullets seated at 2.800. Results weren't very good with those loads either. My friend said I needed to seat the bullets deeper so the next time out I seated at 2.740. That put the bullet in the case to the bottom of the top belt. Confused yet? But, it did shoot a pretty good group with 50 grains which is one grain off Barnes book max. Group size was maybe +/- 1/2 inch. This was what I was hoping for. So, I loaded 9 more rounds with the 50 gr Tac load to confirm accuracy but we are having a monsoon here in Okla so range time is on hold until the weather breaks.

I like the rifle so I'm hoping my load works out. With the Leupold scope the rifle weight in and 7lb 1oz. Will make a great light weight hunting rifle and I have confidence that I will get it shooting good. I just have to find what it likes best!! Thanks for all the help!!!

 

[6BRAckley]

If a 308 won’t shoot at least decent with varget and 168 sierras then there is no use moving on until the problem is diagnosed.

JP

 

[Pyscodog]

Got a break in the weather and shot the Barnes again. Meh! I guess that one good group was just a fluke. A .995 was the best of three groups. Under an inch so I guess it isn't bad but not what I'm looking for. Think I'll try something different.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Xterminator is another powder that has worked well with copper bullets for me.

 

[Fclassfool]

They like jump and like to be pushed fast. Drop the bullet weight and you will probably see better results. The TTSX is all I hunt with anymore.

 

[SeabeeKen]

I shot a lot of the 140 gr. Match Burner bullets but never shot them near max loads with 4155 powder in a 6.5 Creedmoor Ruger Predator rifle. They shot in the the .3's. at 20 off. That was when that was the only powder we could get. They did not copper much at all. But that could have been the powder.

He isnt talking about the MB bullets. He is talking about the copper hunting bullets

 

[Steve Donlon]

He isnt talking about the MB bullets. He is talking about the copper hunting bullets

Thanks, MY mistake. It makes sense.

 

[Seamaster31]

I use the Barnes TTSX bullets for some rifles and it sounds like your friend gave you good advice. My experience is that at least .050 off, and often more than that, is where they shoot the best. In my aftermarket barrels the copper does not build quickly, but in some factory barrels the copper becomes a problem if many rounds are fired between cleanings. In some rifles I have seen groups grow by a clearly measurable amount.

 

[snert]

If you are shooting the 130 grain TTSX you MUST crimp it lightly in the cannular, They walk out of the case because of the short bullet vs neck contact.