AR's giving me a headache

[mitch_04]

Hi,
I had a thread a few weeks ago where I was struggling to reload .204 rounds from a bolt gun to function in an AR. I tried using the spent brass from the AR and that also did not chamber after reloading so I ordered a set of small base "AR" dies.

I reloaded some 6.8 rounds for my other upper using spent cases from that upper, and only 2 out of 10 would chamber, tightly.

Am I missing something obvious here, or am I going to have to order "AR" dies for the 6.8 as well? I've reloaded for my bolt guns for years without a hitch, including some long range loads.

Thanks,

Mitch

 

[jimbo88mm]

I realize this might be a silly question but are you sure you are setting up your dies correctly (e.g screwed in enough)?

I am using standard 223 lee dies for mine and have had no problems.

I would maybe try turning the die in another quarter to half turn and then make a couple of dummy rounds to see if they'll chamber.

The only other thing I can think of is to check your spent cases for pressure signs like cratered and/or flattened primers.

 

[mitch_04]

I'm not having a problem extracting spent shells, it will not chamber a loaded round. First round out of a magazine will not fully seat, bolt will not rotate itself shut. I have reset my dies and it didn't help. I'm already contacting the shellholder, so wouldn't rotating the die down further just cause me to hit the die earlier?

 

[jonbearman]

Do you anneal your brass if it has multiple firings on them? Are you using small base dies or not. Are you chamfering the brass inside and out? Annealing will help the brass go back to full original shape after sizing. Is this an armalite as they have match chambers.

 

[jimbo88mm]

I'm already contacting the shellholder, so wouldn't rotating the die down further just cause me to hit the die earlier?

I don't know what brand of dies you are using or which press but the instructions that came with my lee dies are as follows for the full length sizer:

"Screw the full length sizer in until it touches the shell holder. Then lower the ram and screw in the die in 1/4 to 1/3 turn more."

I also took the liberty to check out what RCBS says with their dies:

"Screw the (full length or neck) sizer die into the press until the die touches the shell holder when the shell holder is brought up to the top of the press stroke. Be sure all the play is removed from the press leverage system. To do this, adjust the die as above, lower the shell holder and set the die 1/8 to 1/4 turn further down so that the press cams over the center."

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/ReloadingDieInstructions.pdf

I believe if you adjusted the die down to the shell holder and then did not give the die an extra ~1/4 turn before tighting it then you may not be fully resizing your brass. While you may be able to get away with this on a bolt, the semi-auto is not going to be as forgiving. Double check the documentation that came with your dies and see if they recommend giving it a little extra turn.

I still think you should give the die an extra quarter turn or so.. then seat a bullet on an empty unprimed brass and see if it will chamber. It'll take just a few mins to do. If it still doesn't chamber then at least you can rule that out

I still consider myself a newbie reloader with only a couple of years under my belt but I do reload for 2 semi-autos.. my franken AR and a M1 Garand. I did make a few dummy rounds for each and tested them to make sure they chambered which told me I had the dies set correctly.

**I also wanted to add that I am not using small base dies for either.. just regular dies. I've loaded hundreds of rounds for the Garand and a couple hundred for my AR (Just got it 6 months ago).. never had a problem with the Garand and only a couple instances of failure to feed with the AR using factory ammo. My reloads have been flawless thus far.

 

[itchyTF]

Are your cases trimmed correctly for your chamber?

 

[amlevin]

I didn't notice any mention of crimping.

I fell victim to this problem with my AR's. After several frustrating attempts to "fix" the rifles I realized the problem was that the cartridge was being crimped at the bullet seating stage. I backed off the seating die, reset the seater plug for the correct OAL, and them crimped as a separate operation.

Some dies will, when crimping and seating in one step, will deform the cartridge at the shoulder just enough to keep it from chambering fully. My rounds were fine in a case gauge as it was just checking headspace. Didn't account for the extra interference caused by the crimping.

 

[Rock Knocker]

I also use the cheap Lee dies for my 223 AR. Ive run into the problem of crushing the shoulders also, check to make sure the shoulders are fine if that isnt the problem. Make sure you dont have some thick grease built up around the recoil spring, that was my problem. Ive get great groups out of cheap dies and using a backpack as a rest, so it can be done. But learning how to reload on an AR isnt the easiest.

 

[A_Gamehog]

First you did not say if you full length sized or neck sized?

To function 100% of the time, an AR-15 style rifle needs a full length sized case, be it a .204, .223, or 6.5.
If you use this ammo in a bolt gun and an AR-15 this fact is more important. Don't crimp any loads as it's not
needed. I load for my 204's and 223's bolt and AR's and don't have any issues. I repeat, don't crimp as it will
deform the neck and only cause you pain. Show me the load book that has in it's loading process using a Neck
die only for an AR-15 and I would be shocked.

To be interchangeable between a bolt rifle and an AR-15 you will only be able to use FL dies. The length of the
magazine, 2.260" dictates your COL for both guns to also carry this further.

Powders I like in my gas guns:
R-10x
Varget
R-15
8208XBR

also work great in bolt guns.

 

[markm87]

Gamehog is right. You NEED a full length sizing die for one....

If you're good there then you REALLY should have a headspace guage for each caliber. If your finished round chambers within the min/max readings on the headspace guage, the ammo is fine.

If it still won't chamber, the weapon is the problem.

 

[mitch_04]

I use a full length die. I'll have to try turning it a little further and see what happens. I did have one crushed shoulder, but I think that's when it was pushed into the chamber. 6.8 barrel is a Shilen, .204 barrel is a Lilja. Both have less than 50 rounds through them. The ones that chambered ejected just fine. I've already gotten a set of small dies for the .204 on the way, but I'll mess around with the 6.8 some more. It's just frustrating when you go out to shoot and find out none of your reloads work.

Does anyone else agree with not crimping? The 6.8 Vmax bullets have a cannelure(spelling?) and the factory loaded rounds were crimped. I set them to crimp after reading that the recoil from the semi auto can change the seating depth on the round if not crimped. The .204 does not have the cannelure.

Thanks for all the help guys, I'm getting such quick responses I don't have time to try them out yet! Weekends close, and deer season is only 10 days away.

Mitch

 

[Killshot]

If you're not screwing the die down farther than the shellholder (when at the top of the stroke) you're not sizing all of the case. I doubt you're bumping the shoulders back enough either.

Properly setting up the sizing die should eliminate the chambering problem.

Crimping? shouldn't need to if you have sufficient neck tension. That's were bushing dies shine.
To see if you're bullets are moving, load up a full magazine, shoot nine and then eject the tenth before firing it and measure the OAL to see if recoil has caused the bullet to be seated deeper into the case. If it moved, you need to crimp (or better, use bushing dies).

 

[Scott Harris]

You did not mention whether or not you have a tool to measure headspace. What is your headspace measurement on your fired brass and resized brass? If you don't know, then that is the first thing you need to fix. Most folks recommend bumping the shoulder .002-.003 on an AR for good function. I've shot many thousands of rounds without crimping. You just need to use heavier neck tension. I use .002 of neck tension for single-load match rounds and .003 of tension for rounds used from a magazine(naked bullets and no neck lube).

Also, you mention that you are trying to use brass from your bolt gun in your AR. I think that is a big no-go. I learned the hard way that you are best not using brass in multiple rifles. I once tried to use old brass on a rebarreled bolt gun. The exact same chamber reamer was used on the new barrel as had been used on the old barrel. I bumped the shoulder all the way back to new brass dimensions: it would not chamber. Next, I sized the old brass with a small-base die and bumped the shoulder back smaller than new brass: still would not chamber. At that point, I threw out the brass and tried new brass: that worked fine and I can resize and use the brass with no issue. Lesson learned: use brass in one chamber only unless you have very generous chamber dimensions.

 

[mytwo60]

1/ Measure the shoulder and bump it back .003-.004
2/ Size the neck ALL THE WAY down
3/ Ensure the loaded round fits your mag

If you do the three steps above and it still doesn't load then I think you should give up on ARs.

 

[mitch_04]

I originally tried to use the bolt gun brass in the AR, however I have since used brass that was just fired in the AR. I'll try resetting the dies, I followed the instructions on the die, so if it told me to screw an additionall half turn, then I did, it's been a couple weeks since I set it up. I do not have a tool to measure headspace, I'll have to invest in one.

Thanks again for all the help everyone.

 

[markm87]

I do not have a tool to measure headspace, I'll have to invest in one.

They are the Holy Bible on an auto loader.

 

[flatlander]

+1 on getting a Hornady (used to be Stoney Point) headspace gauge set. Without one, you're just chasing your tail. I've never needed a small base die for any of my gas guns, which include a DCM M1, SA M1A, custom AR10s in 6XC, 6.5x47, 7mm-08, & 308, as well as several AR15s in 223 & various other wildcat chamberings. Don't need to crimp either.

When I find a custom chamber's headspace dimension requires more shoulder bump than I can get by screwing the FL die down as far as possible, I simply grind or mill a few thou off the top of the shellholder. I've seen people recommend Redding's custom shellholder sets, but IIRC, they are only thicker, not thinner, which wouldn't help in this situation.

One last suggestion - Hornady's FL dies tend to have very tight body dimensions, falling somewhere between a std. FL die & small base ones. I bought one for 223 when I discovered that my old (1968) RCBS 223 FL die was 'crooked' (for lack of a better term), and was actually creating over .006" TIR in cases that'd been checked on a runout fixture and found to have zero TIR before sizing. I ran a bunch of these cases through the new Hornady FL die, and it straightened 'em right out. I'd recommend one of these dies before investing in small base dies, if the use of the headspace gauge set doesn't point out where your problems lie.

 

[jonbearman]

No disrespect,but your experience isnt necessarily everyone elses experience.If your older rcbs was crooked,send it back as they are lifetime warranteed. I have lots of rcbs and have never had a problem.But after repeated firings the case's tend to spring back when they egt real hard and annealing and resizing would be the way to go.This is my opinion and in no way do I say you are incorrect.It is just evryone has different needs and we do things slightly different ,that is all.

 

[flatlander]

jon,
I doubt anyone would've been more surprised than I was to discover the problem with my RCBS 223 FL die. I started loading in 1968 with a RCBS Jr. press and a set of RCBS 30-06 dies. I bought RCBS dies & accessories whenever possible, as I believed they made the best equipment available. But to reiterate what I stated in my post, it was the die's fault - not hard brass, and not a bent decapper/expander spindle. I tried sizing with the spindle removed - no improvement. Tried putting an O-ring under the lock ring - no improvement. Tried sizing brand new brass - same thing.

My post was not an attempt to badmouth RCBS, but a simple explanation of a problem I'd experienced. Your reaction makes me wonder if I touched a nerve. I've seen problems with other makes of dies & loading equipment - it can happen with anyone's product. I'd loaded something over 25,000rds of 223 before use of a NECO concentricity gauge pointed out the problem, so never considered returning it. Some guys might've sent it back - I simply choose to replace it with the Hornady die, and another one from Forster/Bonanza.

 

[mitch_04]

Quick update. Got the .204 small base dies, as far as a dry run goes, they are cycling. Haven't shot yet. The 6.8 dies state to raise ram to top, screw sizing die until it touchs shellholder, the lock in. No 1/4 turn. I reset them according to that, no cycling, then I went back and gave it a 1/4 turn. Now they cycle as far as a dry run goes. I also adjusted my seater die to not crimp anymore.

Hopefully shoot this weekend and try it out!