I have always used bolt action rifles for prairie dogs except a reworked Ruger 10-22 Target rifle on pups. Which brand and model cal 223 semi auto rifle should I look at that will do one inch or less groups at 100 Yds. I would like to keep the rifle under 12 pounds with a scope. I do not wont one with a carrying handle. Most of my shots at prairie dogs are within 300 Yds.
ARs for Varmints--Pros and Cons
- Thread starter Forum Boss
- Start date
Rock River Arms A-4 Varminter. Write up a few months back in Shooting Times. That puppy was getting it done. Made me want one real bad. It will deliver tomorrow if the UPS or Fed-Ex truck shows up. Gonna jump on that 6mmAR upper real soon. Robert got his mess together. Just my opinion but everybody's got one. Bill
That Magpul stock is great! Got one for my Bush Var. Midway has the Jewells for 189$ this month. They will be seeing my order quick!!
I was able to get over 2900fps from both the 6mm and 6.5Banshee
this weekend. 95 SMKs in the 6 and 100 Scenars in the 6.5 both have 22" barrels.
this weekend. 95 SMKs in the 6 and 100 Scenars in the 6.5 both have 22" barrels.
Love my RRA Varmint! I have several varmint guns,all bolts till a friend demonstrated the potential of the "Black Rifle" I wanted a medium range varmint gun for prairie dogs. Didn't want to burn up my 22-250 or 6AI on 200yd dogs and the 22 Hornet just wasn't getting it done so the .223 was a perfect choice. I am still amazed how this gun shoots! I handlos for it with a 55 gr HP and H335 it shoots 1/2" or less at 100yds. Was out with friends doing some target shooting this weekend and hitting coke cans at 250yds was no problem. They were most impressed.
Stosh
Stosh
stosh, It will do a lot better than that, I'm sure. Two of my shooting buddies and myself have taken out 20 oz. pop bottles filled with water at 600 yds. with my RRA A4. It only has an 18" barrel but it sure does not seem to bother the accuracy. My load for that particular outing was IMG brass, 69 gr. SMK, 25.7 gr. varget and CCI BR-4 primer. I'm seating my bullets .010 from the lands and shooting from the Bob Sled single feed. On that particular day, more bottles and jugs were busted with my rifle than any bolt gun in the woods. I am really surprised at the accuracy of these things but I love it. Try that thing out on the long end on a calm day and watch it shine. Bill
I have read all the pages here and all good,and also had a AR at one time with a custom upper SS heavy with flutes and a 1/14" twist I shoot 50gr bil tips out to 500yds no problem a great rifle.,should have never got rid of it) That being said the only draw back that I found was that you have to be careful not to over heat the barrel,witch is easy to do) shooting P-dogs as you all know.Heat is the biggest thing you have to worry about with guns hunting P-dogs.I thing is once you start shooting at them little suckers you don't want to stop for cool down.That's it every thing else is great.Tim
the flattest shooting ARs are now the;
5.56x42DMR 75Amax-3066@20"
6mmAR
6mmARTurbo
6mmBanshee 95SMK-3006@22"
6mmHagar
6.5Banshee 100Scenar-2976@22"
5.56x42DMR 75Amax-3066@20"
6mmAR
6mmARTurbo
6mmBanshee 95SMK-3006@22"
6mmHagar
6.5Banshee 100Scenar-2976@22"
There is no compairing the two. They are both semi auto only both in 223. After that the AR-15 takes the lead in every catigory except wood. If you want wood a wood stock the AR options are very spendy and look like wood. If you are really looking at both get the AR. You will not be sad. Untill you need to buy ammo or componets.
It's the avaiability of the follow up shot.
Got my 1st Coyote this am it was quartering away from me. It was trotting, I lead it 6-8" and a couple of inches high. Head shot only clean kill shot avaiable. Missed she turned and looked to the left and broadsided her head. 2nd shot thru her left ear. Dropped GYD "Grave Yard Dead" not even a twitch. The shot measured at 260 + - 10yds. Rock River A4 20" varmint, 55gr SPS.
Finally after 2years of chassing these critters...
Got my 1st Coyote this am it was quartering away from me. It was trotting, I lead it 6-8" and a couple of inches high. Head shot only clean kill shot avaiable. Missed she turned and looked to the left and broadsided her head. 2nd shot thru her left ear. Dropped GYD "Grave Yard Dead" not even a twitch. The shot measured at 260 + - 10yds. Rock River A4 20" varmint, 55gr SPS.
Finally after 2years of chassing these critters...
Nice going Harvy Congrats. Now back to the question.
I have yet to see any sporting rifle or single shot manufacture warranty their rifles for .50 MOA at 100 yards except AR manufactures like Bushmaster, DPMS, Rock River and others on a production rifle. Until that happens whatever you non-AR shooters have to say really doesn't make hill of beans. You don't want to believe so you won't, maybe you should take the rifle manufactures word for it. They really do shoot less that .50 MOA. When an average shooter such as my self can hit the X ring at 200 yards with no problem, I have to believe that the rifle has something to do with it. Varmints do not have a chance in the 0 to 250 yard range and yes even out to 500 yards with a good scope. Now there is garbage ARs and excellent ARs so those of you that can't hit the side of a barn with an AR or are one of the cowboys at the range that shoot "Service Rifle" and appear to be spraying the area with un-aimed lead must be using a garbage brand or are blind in one eye and can't see out the other.
It is cheaper to shoot, reload, service and for a TRAINED shooter provides hit on target more times and harder that any other 22 cal weapon manufactured.,Now the 22 hornet people might not agree with that) You really need to try one before you gripe that they are no good. Mine is a 24" Bushmaster Varminter with 1 in 9.25 twist a completely free floating vented barrel and a trigger that fires at 1.0 lbs pull.
I doubt you can say that about your Icon, Remington, Weatherby, T/C or other bolt gun.
THIS IS a production rifle with the only additions of a Harris bi-pod and a 6-24X44 cheapo scope mounted on it. Does it do what it is intended to do YES YES YES,kill varmints) would I take it deer hunting,Hell NO) it is not even legal in my state to use a bolt gun to take deer with unless it is Black Powder.,now there's a single shot for you LOL) and yes I own a CVA 50 Cal in-line.
Those of us that own one,AR) and have shot them think they are fun guns and gives us lots of trigger time. Those that don't and haven't need to try one before they argue with those of use that do.
BigJim
I have yet to see any sporting rifle or single shot manufacture warranty their rifles for .50 MOA at 100 yards except AR manufactures like Bushmaster, DPMS, Rock River and others on a production rifle. Until that happens whatever you non-AR shooters have to say really doesn't make hill of beans. You don't want to believe so you won't, maybe you should take the rifle manufactures word for it. They really do shoot less that .50 MOA. When an average shooter such as my self can hit the X ring at 200 yards with no problem, I have to believe that the rifle has something to do with it. Varmints do not have a chance in the 0 to 250 yard range and yes even out to 500 yards with a good scope. Now there is garbage ARs and excellent ARs so those of you that can't hit the side of a barn with an AR or are one of the cowboys at the range that shoot "Service Rifle" and appear to be spraying the area with un-aimed lead must be using a garbage brand or are blind in one eye and can't see out the other.
It is cheaper to shoot, reload, service and for a TRAINED shooter provides hit on target more times and harder that any other 22 cal weapon manufactured.,Now the 22 hornet people might not agree with that) You really need to try one before you gripe that they are no good. Mine is a 24" Bushmaster Varminter with 1 in 9.25 twist a completely free floating vented barrel and a trigger that fires at 1.0 lbs pull.
I doubt you can say that about your Icon, Remington, Weatherby, T/C or other bolt gun.
THIS IS a production rifle with the only additions of a Harris bi-pod and a 6-24X44 cheapo scope mounted on it. Does it do what it is intended to do YES YES YES,kill varmints) would I take it deer hunting,Hell NO) it is not even legal in my state to use a bolt gun to take deer with unless it is Black Powder.,now there's a single shot for you LOL) and yes I own a CVA 50 Cal in-line.
Those of us that own one,AR) and have shot them think they are fun guns and gives us lots of trigger time. Those that don't and haven't need to try one before they argue with those of use that do.
BigJim
Big Jim,
Your so right, but that is like trying to get a Ford man to
drive a Chevy.
As for my experience with'em has been nothing but good and I have had the arguments at least one or two with my dad and uncle every year we go "prarie bearin" but the fact still remains I always take more and spend less doing it and the accuracy from my Less Baer is all a true rifleman could ask for
and you don't even need to change positions while dishing out plenty of carnage and with minimal recoil being able to watch all of it up close through the glass. ps. I still take the bolt
guns for the ones who think they're safe having grass picnics
pass the 500m mark.
Clint
Your so right, but that is like trying to get a Ford man to
drive a Chevy.
As for my experience with'em has been nothing but good and I have had the arguments at least one or two with my dad and uncle every year we go "prarie bearin" but the fact still remains I always take more and spend less doing it and the accuracy from my Less Baer is all a true rifleman could ask for
and you don't even need to change positions while dishing out plenty of carnage and with minimal recoil being able to watch all of it up close through the glass. ps. I still take the bolt
guns for the ones who think they're safe having grass picnics
pass the 500m mark.
Clint
First thing that needs to be looked at for me is accuracy. If it can't shoot accurate then it doesn't matter how fast you can shoot it. Today many highly accurate guns exist in all fields. With technology and machining more advanced today accuracy seems to be more and more of a standard. Nothing is as evident as in the AR. Since the heavy barrels have started really popping up and then the switch to a free floated hand guard along with proper machining tolerances we have really seen a vast improvement in what an off the shelf AR can do consistently in the accuracy department. Many manufacturers guarentee 1 MOA accuracy and a few are at 1/2 MOA. That is plenty accurate to be effective beyond most hunting environments. When other calibers with better wind resistance and retained energy are looked at in uppers the range increases even longer all the way to the monster .50 BMG.
So the rifle is capable of the accuracy. The rifle is capable of being found in a round that will suit the distance you plan to hunt.
Then we have speed of follow up shots. There are two ways to look at this which I think really makes or breaks the AR-15 or any semi auto for the given shooter. The first view is that with the AR you have quick follow ups so when multiple targets appear you have better odds to take out more than one. You still view each trigger pull the same as you would with a single shot but after the first round is fired you move straight to the second target and have no waisted time. The alternative view is that if I miss I have quick follow up shots. To me this is unacceptable. Misses happen, I have had my fair share. Every shot on an animal should be viewed as a humane kill and only taken if it can be done humanely. If you rush shots knowing you have quick spares you move out of taking a humane kill. To me that just isn't the goal. If you as a shooter can shoot each shot only when a humane situation occurs I am all for the AR in a hunting situation. At worst you only get one humane shot off before you have to stop just like a single shot and at best you can clear an entire field. If though you personally don't take proper shots with an AR that you would with something else I don't think you should use it.
It really boils down that as a tool it is capable of being very effective as a Varmint gun. If it is a tool worth using really depends on how the shooter treats it and how it is handled. It is a bit like owning a car that goes way way over the speed limit. If you are reckless without respect you shouldn't be driving it. On the other hand if you keep to your abilities and do so in a safe manor,say on a track or strip) then it turns into a TON of fun.
So the rifle is capable of the accuracy. The rifle is capable of being found in a round that will suit the distance you plan to hunt.
Then we have speed of follow up shots. There are two ways to look at this which I think really makes or breaks the AR-15 or any semi auto for the given shooter. The first view is that with the AR you have quick follow ups so when multiple targets appear you have better odds to take out more than one. You still view each trigger pull the same as you would with a single shot but after the first round is fired you move straight to the second target and have no waisted time. The alternative view is that if I miss I have quick follow up shots. To me this is unacceptable. Misses happen, I have had my fair share. Every shot on an animal should be viewed as a humane kill and only taken if it can be done humanely. If you rush shots knowing you have quick spares you move out of taking a humane kill. To me that just isn't the goal. If you as a shooter can shoot each shot only when a humane situation occurs I am all for the AR in a hunting situation. At worst you only get one humane shot off before you have to stop just like a single shot and at best you can clear an entire field. If though you personally don't take proper shots with an AR that you would with something else I don't think you should use it.
It really boils down that as a tool it is capable of being very effective as a Varmint gun. If it is a tool worth using really depends on how the shooter treats it and how it is handled. It is a bit like owning a car that goes way way over the speed limit. If you are reckless without respect you shouldn't be driving it. On the other hand if you keep to your abilities and do so in a safe manor,say on a track or strip) then it turns into a TON of fun.
I am now shooting the 65 JLK Low Drag,BC-.395) out of my ISSI AR 9 twist Hart .223 AI using the old DPMS VLD magazine single-stacked. I'm only getting 3050 out of the 26" barrel, but it's accuracy is excellent and coupled with the excellent ballistic reticle in this optic,recald. to the trajectory of the above load) i'm good to about 500 +/- on coyotes--
http://www.rapidreticle.com/22lr3-9x32.htm
...beyond that the match bullets don't seem to open up reliably enuf to provide quick clean kills on coyotes.
"I was able to get over 2900fps from both the 6mm and 6.5Banshee
this weekend. 95 SMKs in the 6 and 100 Scenars in the 6.5 both have 22" barrels.
__________________
http://www.AR15Performance.com "
...interesting stuff Constructor, and nice site. Nothing quite like the accuracy research of the AR platforms--fascinating stuff really.
Was out hunting coyotes with 1 of my partners and he was using a stock AR-10 243 Win/87 V-Max this last winter. On 1 stand i watched him nail a jackrabbit on the 2nd shot @ 472 lasered yds. in about a 5 mph full value wind using a 4.5-14X VX-III/Stoney Point turrets he cald. to his load. Pretty impressive to see that jack flip into the air at that range.
http://www.rapidreticle.com/22lr3-9x32.htm
...beyond that the match bullets don't seem to open up reliably enuf to provide quick clean kills on coyotes.
"I was able to get over 2900fps from both the 6mm and 6.5Banshee
this weekend. 95 SMKs in the 6 and 100 Scenars in the 6.5 both have 22" barrels.
__________________
http://www.AR15Performance.com "
...interesting stuff Constructor, and nice site. Nothing quite like the accuracy research of the AR platforms--fascinating stuff really.
Was out hunting coyotes with 1 of my partners and he was using a stock AR-10 243 Win/87 V-Max this last winter. On 1 stand i watched him nail a jackrabbit on the 2nd shot @ 472 lasered yds. in about a 5 mph full value wind using a 4.5-14X VX-III/Stoney Point turrets he cald. to his load. Pretty impressive to see that jack flip into the air at that range.
Just got back from a PD hunt in Wy,my first).
I had brought the following rifles with me,for myself and my father to shoot)
Bushmaster Varminter which I modified with the following:
JP modular trigger, Olympic Pneumatic Buffer, Miculek muzzle brake and a Magpul stock
Two Cooper 204's
Richard's Rifles 300 Varminter,300WSM)
6X47 Lapua
Richard's Rifles 6mm Ackley
Remington 40x 6mm br
While I enjoyed making some long shots with the 6x47,confirmed kills at 920 and 950 and one past 1000 which I couldn't find) and while I enjoyed the splat factor of the 6 Ackley and 300 WSM which is shooting 125 NBT's at 4000 fps or so, the AR just can't be beat for the fun factor.
With the buffer and muzzle brake, it is similar to shooting a rimfire. You can see your misses and even better you can see your hits. For the short periods of time that my father was kind enough to let me shoot my AR, I literally took out hundreds of the little buggers, mostly 200 to 400 yards but a few closer and farther.
I was also able to shoot an 'I'm embarrassed to say' amount of rounds without cleaning with no practical loss of accuracy.
This gun will also hold 1/2 MOA out to 300 yards with factory Hunting Shack ammo.
For whatever it's worth, I'm building an exact replica of this rifle so that I wont have to fight over it with my father. I'm also building a 204 Ruger AR, set up similarly.
In my opinion, the bolt guns are great for really long range work but for everything else, I'll take the AR's any day.
-John
I had brought the following rifles with me,for myself and my father to shoot)
Bushmaster Varminter which I modified with the following:
JP modular trigger, Olympic Pneumatic Buffer, Miculek muzzle brake and a Magpul stock
Two Cooper 204's
Richard's Rifles 300 Varminter,300WSM)
6X47 Lapua
Richard's Rifles 6mm Ackley
Remington 40x 6mm br
While I enjoyed making some long shots with the 6x47,confirmed kills at 920 and 950 and one past 1000 which I couldn't find) and while I enjoyed the splat factor of the 6 Ackley and 300 WSM which is shooting 125 NBT's at 4000 fps or so, the AR just can't be beat for the fun factor.
With the buffer and muzzle brake, it is similar to shooting a rimfire. You can see your misses and even better you can see your hits. For the short periods of time that my father was kind enough to let me shoot my AR, I literally took out hundreds of the little buggers, mostly 200 to 400 yards but a few closer and farther.
I was also able to shoot an 'I'm embarrassed to say' amount of rounds without cleaning with no practical loss of accuracy.
This gun will also hold 1/2 MOA out to 300 yards with factory Hunting Shack ammo.
For whatever it's worth, I'm building an exact replica of this rifle so that I wont have to fight over it with my father. I'm also building a 204 Ruger AR, set up similarly.
In my opinion, the bolt guns are great for really long range work but for everything else, I'll take the AR's any day.
-John
EGW makes a “Bag Rider†that quickly installs and removes. This may be the ultimate item to very accurately shoot ¼ MOA bench rest groups with the AR’s round hand guard. If the front Bag Rider had a recessed Picatinny rail that would accept Arredondo’s quick mount bipod adapter I’d leave it installed all the time for support on props in match shooting.
See demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdkAiCSso9g
More info at:
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/
If you are interested call them at 1,215) 538-1012 because their web page tried to plant a Trojan virus when I went to it today. I notified them by voice mail and I expect it will be cleaned soon.
Steve Harris
See demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdkAiCSso9g
More info at:
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/
If you are interested call them at 1,215) 538-1012 because their web page tried to plant a Trojan virus when I went to it today. I notified them by voice mail and I expect it will be cleaned soon.
Steve Harris
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