Are we too competitive ?

[AlNyhus]

A friend had a double trick, double throwdown press...CNC'd by Swedish virgins drinking Perrier by a brook in the moon light or something like that. No need to name it but it's right at $1,200.

With one of my dies in the high zoot press, the case runout was double what my 25 year old loosey goosey Partner press with a 69 cent 'o' ring under the lock ring delivers.

 

[Steve h]

Thanks for offering us old/disabled guys a bench. I just moved into that category(old/disabled)this month myself. I’ve applied to NRA for a variance to shoot fclass off a portable bench I built. We’ll see how it goes.

 

[Will Henry]

In the early part of my shooting career (if one can call it a career) I was relatively poor. A young gunsmith in the late'70's didn't make a huge amount of money. Later on, I had more money, but the die was cast and I was cheap! So it was that I never spent a huge amount of money on equipment, or anything else! In the year that I won the NW Regional LV championship (1980?), I drove to Issaquah, Washington in a 1964 Mercury Comet which I had purchased from Rent-a-Wreck for 100 bucks. I built my own rifles, of course, and they were nothing special. As I recall, I shot a Wichita Mini action with a Hart barrel and Canjar trigger. A 24x Leupold (125 bucks at the White Elephant in Spokane) topped it off. I slept in the car and breakfasted on Cheerios. I had upgraded my front rest to a Wichita model from the cheap Hoppes rest I had used to win most of the matches I shot in the previous two years. You don't want to hear about my reloading outfit and techniques!
The point is this, what a person chooses to spend on equipment is up to him. Even in BR shooting the results are influenced by things other than the depth of the pockets. If I was to go to a BR match today, I would shoot the same kind of stuff I did before and I would expect to agg in the neighborhood of .250. Maybe not competitive anymore but satisfying, nonetheless. WH

 

[Schippergreg]

It doesn’t have to be a money race. Once you have good equipment, throwing money at fancy gadgets doesn’t buy you smaller groups. There’s nothing wrong with being competitive. I don’t mind losing but I want to know that I did the best I could. If someone beats me because they’re better than I am at tuning or wind reading I’ll be the first to shake their hand and congratulate them, but hell yeah want to win. If nobody pushed themselves to be better than their competitors the sport would get stagnant. There’s also nothing wrong with going to a match to hang out with some buddies and not caring how you shoot, I’m just not there yet.

 

[mauser284]

I would have you start with "Asch Conformity Experiment" then "Stanford Prison Experiment" and then look into how people become jelious and filled with resentment if they percieve someone having any kind of advantage! It is well known that people with low self esteem and people that are very agressive and competitive are many fold more likely to cheat to win. This sorts would be upset if you gave 4 foot tall child any exception to the rules if they thought it gave that child an advantage!

You see this in the business world in corperate America as you climb the ladder a lot of conditions and personality traits that are not represented much in the general population starts to cluster in different industries and different levels of each industry. To the point that extrem bias in those traits and characteristics emerge. You can profile with high degrees of accuracy what people will do well in various trades or jobs. Psychopathy increases as one rises in management/business and politics. Washington DC for instance has an insane bias to towards most of the nastiest combinations of personality traits that are seen as dark lots of Psychopathic and Sociopathic personality traits and think Dark Triad types!

If you want to see some terrible human behavior right out in plain sight for all to see spend a lot of time at youth sports and such! Look at the child pagents parents or dance and gymnastics parents. Brutal!

If you let those injured old farts like me have anything other's might see as an advantage the more resentment you will see especially if any of the people that get these exceptions happen to win. If you let them have lighter rifles than standard for them or for youth and they happened to win you would see a lot of guys flocking to lighter rifles or pushing for it. For most of F Class muzzle devices where not a thing but today they are as common as can be! If you let them have a more powerful optic because they are legaly blind and they started winning they would all want that. If you let them have a shooting jacket because they have some actual handicap then they would all want shooting jackets. Just like everyone wants to blame their stock trigger for accuracy issues! What ever people see as an advantage they will want even if it is worthless and a nothing burger. If some top shooter insisted that the key to their sucess was coffee enema's you would secretly see 1/2 of the field doing coffee enema's each morning at the hotel before they had to head to the match! Often the more expensive you make a thing the more people will lust after it.


The idea of the cream of the crop rising to the top due to competition might be true if just looking at performance but it also brings out a lot of negative traits in people as well. The combination of time, money, oppertunity cost, stress, desire to win, lots of traveling, any shortage of materials or long gunsmithing lead times does not make for ideal situation to bring out the best in a person. For some it is Zen like and for other's it is a crucible or pressure cooker.

It is just like anything you can not keep those with a lack of virtue, morality, intelligence, mental health issues etc....from competing. A lot of people are fairly empty husks with little depth to them. Take away a belief in god and sprinkle in a need for instant gratification and jumping from one dopamine hit to the next and you get bad behavior. I am sure we all have seen sore loser in sports or competitions growing up as kids. Not only did I see it as a kid but even 10,000X more rasing my 3 sons where all of them where scholars, muscians, and athletes.

The way people drive and shop is a good indicator of what type of people they are. Most people can not drive in a civilized manner and obey the very simple driving rules we have in the USA. The world today is filled more than ever with very selfish, needy, weak minded people that have no standards and think that their should be no standards!

So no I do not think we are too competitive! I think we lack moral stability. I think we lack common social and moral standards. I think we lack religious belief in a higher power that we are accountabil to. I think as a nation we are lacking in strong understanding of who we where, are and should be as a nation and nationality! I think we lack good mentors in most of society today! People are no longer educated in critical thinking and philosphy in large part. History is not well taught today and it has such an idological bias that even when it is taught today it is not taught well! You end up with weak men that are not well formed as human beings mentaly, physicaly, socialy,moraly.

I have many hobbies and passions and you see this every where you look at every level of society and in every walk of life from the mundane even like driving!

I dare anyone that lives in sleepy American fly over country to go into Detroit, Tucson, LA, New York, Chicago and spend more than a week on vaction get out into the heart of these places. They act and drive and shop like animals! That is becoming the standard and that is why you see such bad behavior in all sports today at all levels. We are no longer a high trust society.

 

[Dave M.]

Not meant to be a rant, but are we getting too competitive ?
Do we all need tuners ? An SEB joystick rest . A set up that is one degree off of rail
gun ? I don't know about the rest of you , but I came to shoot .
It seems to be more money, more gear, more prep, less passion every year.
I see posts on weighing primers, brass , sorting / pointing bullets.
I would not be surprised to see a microscope to sort powder grains by length.
At my club (F class) we decided to let some of our older marksman with back problems
shoot off of a bench. Due to a perceived advantage, everyone now has a back problem and needs a bench.
Is the prize table that good? Is the honor that high?
I have always enjoyed my club , I don't care if the most hard core competitors take advantage
of squading or questionable scoring . Shooting a relay has always been the high point of my week.
Win or loose, I couldn't care less. The most satisfied I have ever been with a relay was shooting an 85
out of 200 with an open sight palma rifle ( laugh all you want until you try it) .
End of (not rant) : Smell the powder burn, feel the wind, send the round, enjoy the gift of friendship
a 200 / 20X is great, its not everything

Some go to be competitor, some go to win. Whatever drives you. Personally, I go to compete at a very high level and I enjoy the hard work and dedication that it takes to get near the top of the class, it drives me to get better. Nobody is laughing at you when you shoot 85/200, quite the contrary. It sounds like the only person that has a problem with the scores, is you. And it seems like your issue is that more people don’t care less about true accuracy and scoring like you do; which ironically would make you more competitive. If you have an issue with others being too competitive, may I suggest to you that possibly you consider NOT shooting in competitions at your club??? To each their own, I seriously doubt any of those really competitive guys you shoot with are giving you a hard time for not being more competitive. Therefore, perhaps you can lay off the rhetoric about the guys that are truly in search of the holy grail of accuracy, which requires going to the nth degree to check and measure anything that has an overall impact on score or group size.
Dave

 

[ronsatspokane]

I would have you start with "Asch Conformity Experiment" then "Stanford Prison Experiment" and then look into how people become jelious and filled with resentment if they percieve someone having any kind of advantage! It is well known that people with low self esteem and people that are very agressive and competitive are many fold more likely to cheat to win. This sorts would be upset if you gave 4 foot tall child any exception to the rules if they thought it gave that child an advantage!

You see this in the business world in corperate America as you climb the ladder a lot of conditions and personality traits that are not represented much in the general population starts to cluster in different industries and different levels of each industry. To the point that extrem bias in those traits and characteristics emerge. You can profile with high degrees of accuracy what people will do well in various trades or jobs. Psychopathy increases as one rises in management/business and politics. Washington DC for instance has an insane bias to towards most of the nastiest combinations of personality traits that are seen as dark lots of Psychopathic and Sociopathic personality traits and think Dark Triad types!

If you want to see some terrible human behavior right out in plain sight for all to see spend a lot of time at youth sports and such! Look at the child pagents parents or dance and gymnastics parents. Brutal!

If you let those injured old farts like me have anything other's might see as an advantage the more resentment you will see especially if any of the people that get these exceptions happen to win. If you let them have lighter rifles than standard for them or for youth and they happened to win you would see a lot of guys flocking to lighter rifles or pushing for it. For most of F Class muzzle devices where not a thing but today they are as common as can be! If you let them have a more powerful optic because they are legaly blind and they started winning they would all want that. If you let them have a shooting jacket because they have some actual handicap then they would all want shooting jackets. Just like everyone wants to blame their stock trigger for accuracy issues! What ever people see as an advantage they will want even if it is worthless and a nothing burger. If some top shooter insisted that the key to their sucess was coffee enema's you would secretly see 1/2 of the field doing coffee enema's each morning at the hotel before they had to head to the match! Often the more expensive you make a thing the more people will lust after it.


The idea of the cream of the crop rising to the top due to competition might be true if just looking at performance but it also brings out a lot of negative traits in people as well. The combination of time, money, oppertunity cost, stress, desire to win, lots of traveling, any shortage of materials or long gunsmithing lead times does not make for ideal situation to bring out the best in a person. For some it is Zen like and for other's it is a crucible or pressure cooker.

It is just like anything you can not keep those with a lack of virtue, morality, intelligence, mental health issues etc....from competing. A lot of people are fairly empty husks with little depth to them. Take away a belief in god and sprinkle in a need for instant gratification and jumping from one dopamine hit to the next and you get bad behavior. I am sure we all have seen sore loser in sports or competitions growing up as kids. Not only did I see it as a kid but even 10,000X more rasing my 3 sons where all of them where scholars, muscians, and athletes.

The way people drive and shop is a good indicator of what type of people they are. Most people can not drive in a civilized manner and obey the very simple driving rules we have in the USA. The world today is filled more than ever with very selfish, needy, weak minded people that have no standards and think that their should be no standards!

So no I do not think we are too competitive! I think we lack moral stability. I think we lack common social and moral standards. I think we lack religious belief in a higher power that we are accountabil to. I think as a nation we are lacking in strong understanding of who we where, are and should be as a nation and nationality! I think we lack good mentors in most of society today! People are no longer educated in critical thinking and philosphy in large part. History is not well taught today and it has such an idological bias that even when it is taught today it is not taught well! You end up with weak men that are not well formed as human beings mentaly, physicaly, socialy,moraly.

I have many hobbies and passions and you see this every where you look at every level of society and in every walk of life from the mundane even like driving!

I dare anyone that lives in sleepy American fly over country to go into Detroit, Tucson, LA, New York, Chicago and spend more than a week on vaction get out into the heart of these places. They act and drive and shop like animals! That is becoming the standard and that is why you see such bad behavior in all sports today at all levels. We are no longer a high trust society.

You insult me with the driving thing. I live in fly over country and in years past I've put upwards of 50,000 miles on a combination of cars and motorcycles all over the world including track days with the motorcycles. I drive it like I stole it (regardless of what I'm driving or riding) everywhere I go. Driving is a sport to me whether that be on the track or through a tight set of curvy roads or even in the city when possible. The Alps are probably my favorite place for this kind of activity. If you are freaked out by the driving here in the US then you should never go to Europe. Running down a mountain pass at 9/10 of what you are capable of on a track and knowing that if you get it wrong you are going to go over the edge on a 180 degree turn and not touch down for at least 3000 feet to the bottom really gets the adrenaline flowing. Picture that, then picture getting passed like you are standing still by the local talent and you get a drift of how other people view motor sports. There is an old saying: if it can't kill you, it's not a sport. And I have not been in an accident in over 40 years. That was a fender bender. We won't even talk about running down the Autbahn are 170 mph and having cars come up on you at 30-50 mph faster than your are going. Better get the hell out of the way AND fast.

Yeah, the way many people drive here in the US it seems that the only requirement for a license is the ability to fog a mirror. I pity those who lack the capacity to absorb the inputs associated with operating a motor vehicle and I think they should park it and consider public transportation. My problem with drivers is the opposite of yours. I think most people should have their license pulled. Especially when they are following me through snowy mountain passes and they STILL can't keep it on the road.

Just a different perspective. I've never been a cliff jumper when skiing but I know people who are. The difference between them and me is skill and practice. Perhaps that is the difference between you and those who you denigrate.

If you haven't guessed, you picked an open sore.

Now as far as money in shooting, whew, I shoot off a Rodzilla or I could have been tarred with that SEB brush.

 

[sw282]

l shoot for FUN. That is my number one reason. l don't need a numbered ''SCORE'' to gauge my level of FUN.
l shoot prairie dogs. l don't keep score on them either. l don't see how far l can hit one. My goal is to see them ''POP''!! Keeping score is work. l'm RETIRED

 

[Fuj]

Now as far as money in shooting, whew, I shoot off a Rodzilla or I could have been tarred with that SEB brush.

I feel your pain......LOL I shot the Bald Eagle for years, and one day
I decided to see what the joy sticks were all about. I went and picked
up a "Shade Tree" and had that "Ah Ha" moment. looking down the
line, all you seen were Seb, and I mean most. Seen an ad for Lenzi
and was told 12 months if not longer. The T-Rex could be had in six
months, and Rod had it to my door in less then two. I still use the
Shade Tree and especially for the grandson. Did I really need it ?? No.
Being retired, I like to buy myself something nice, once a year. So that's
how I justify it. It's only money !!

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I dare anyone that lives in sleepy American fly over country to go into Detroit, Tucson, LA, New York, Chicago and spend more than a week on vaction get out into the heart of these places.

Sadly, we will never even visit these places for a vacation anymore because of the crime factor.

 

[AlNyhus]

If you go to a tournament thinking you have to beat everyone or are so thin skinned that you equate anyone finishing above you to your having been  beaten, you're done before you fire the first shot.

Be competitive with yourself and shoot the best you can. At the end of the day, they'll let you know where you finished.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[jimmymac]

It doesn’t have to be a money race. Once you have good equipment, throwing money at fancy gadgets doesn’t buy you smaller groups. There’s nothing wrong with being competitive. I don’t mind losing but I want to know that I did the best I could. If someone beats me because they’re better than I am at tuning or wind reading I’ll be the first to shake their hand and congratulate them, but hell yeah want to win. If nobody pushed themselves to be better than their competitors the sport would get stagnant. There’s also nothing wrong with going to a match to hang out with some buddies and not caring how you shoot, I’m just not there yet.

100% this.

 

[jimmymac]

If you go to a tournament thinking you have to beat everyone or are so thin skinned that you equate anyone finishing above you to your having been  beaten, you're done before you fire the first shot.

Be competitive with yourself and shoot the best you can. At the end of the day, they'll let you know where you finished.

Good shootin' -Al

I never look at the score sheet. I seldom look at my targets. I just saw what I did through my scope and know if it is good or bad. I never know how things turn out until the very end. I am there to do the best I possibly can and be as competitive as I can be. Every once in a while it actually works out.

 

[AlNyhus]

I never look at the score sheet. I seldom look at my targets. I just saw what I did through my scope and know if it is good or bad. I never know how things turn out until the very end. I am there to do the best I possibly can and be as competitive as I can be. Every once in a while it actually works out.

This in spades. ^^^^

 

[Liven The Dream]

Been shooting for many years love it. Little background Service Rifle, Match Rifle, Palma, F/Open and Small Bore still Shot a match or two.
Over the past few years looks to me as a Money Race ? That to my eye makes it hard on new comers.
like all Sports the people that make it to the Top ( not all) have a click.
I find tiring to help a shooter out a our local Range a real gas. Kind of like fishing set the hook.
Most of us started at the beginning ?

 

[FNSafari]

Not meant to be a rant, but are we getting too competitive ?
Do we all need tuners ? An SEB joystick rest . A set up that is one degree off of rail
gun ? I don't know about the rest of you , but I came to shoot .
It seems to be more money, more gear, more prep, less passion every year.
I see posts on weighing primers, brass , sorting / pointing bullets.
I would not be surprised to see a microscope to sort powder grains by length.
At my club (F class) we decided to let some of our older marksman with back problems
shoot off of a bench. Due to a perceived advantage, everyone now has a back problem and needs a bench.
Is the prize table that good? Is the honor that high?
I have always enjoyed my club , I don't care if the most hard core competitors take advantage
of squading or questionable scoring . Shooting a relay has always been the high point of my week.
Win or loose, I couldn't care less. The most satisfied I have ever been with a relay was shooting an 85
out of 200 with an open sight palma rifle ( laugh all you want until you try it) .
End of (not rant) : Smell the powder burn, feel the wind, send the round, enjoy the gift of friendship
a 200 / 20X is great, its not everything

NO

 

[jackieschmidt]

I started shooting Short Range Benchrest back in the early 1990’s BECAUSE of the high level of precision and attention to detail that is required, and for the Competition.
Through out my adult life, I have been involved in competitive endevours. I raced boats all through the 1970’s, started racing a Drag bike in 1981, and did that until it almost killed me in 1985.

That ended my need for speed.

I could see from the beginning that in Short Range Group or Score, you can never be any better than the rifle. That inspired me, as a machinist, to build the best rifles I could.

As for the ongoing equipment race in the latest Bench and Loading Equipment, I never fell for much of it. My bench setup is almost a joke. My rest is an old Hart that I made an adjustable windage top for our of a little South Bend Lathe we scrapped 25 years ago.I use it because it suites my style of shooting. I have never been a runner, I am a condition shooter. Admittedly, sometimes it works, often times not.

I do make my own bullets, both 30 caliber for VFS, and 68 grn 6mm for group. I think many on this Forum would be surprised as to just how many Short Range Shooters do make their own bullets.

My main thoughts are this game, that being Short Range, is all about barrels, bullets, and tuning. A great barrel, really good bullets, and the ability to tune the rifle and keep it there will carry you a long way.

 

[JFrank]

I think I’m a minimalist because I enjoy getting the most from the least. I like good tools but other than that I use an old press, shoot an old rifle with new barrels and great bullets off a 26 year old front rest, I chase the tune and try to out smart the conditions at 1000 yards.
Like Al says~ if you do good they’ll let you know.

The more I shoot the more I learn.

 

[Uncle Bruce]

I encourage everyone to buy an M1 Garand and start shooting Garand (CMP Games) matches.

Granted, Garands are expensive these days ($1000 and up) but it is one of the disciplines furthest away you can get from being an equipment race. Especially if shooting in the 'as issued' class.

Just you, the Garand with open sights, a sling, coat and glove, and the reassuring thump of the 30-06. One of my favorite rifles and favorite type of competitions. It is a ton of fun.

Around the gun shows 1000 dollars will not get you an M1. Lately 1500 is a parts bin clunker.

 

[quest450]

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum as most of shooters in this thread, I love quality reloading tools and high end rifles, I'll pay top dollar for a tool that I think could help me shoot a better agg, I'm lucky enough to have one of the best gunsmiths in our game (600-1K benchrest) Every match and event I attend I want to win, every target I shoot I want to set a new world record, that's what drives me and gives me enjoyment and motivation, love reloading and tuning as much as competing but there's that great feeling of adrenaline rush every time I get behind my rifle and totally focus on that X.