Are These Primers Cratered?

[rockable]

No, I could not. I will look into that.

Think about it. If the case neck can't expand enough to release the bullet, what happens to pressure? It goes up. Some brass is really thick in the neck and some has "lumps" in it. If you can't insert a bullet into a fired case, you have a problem. My Model 12 220 Swift had that problem.

Turning the neck is best for accuracy. Reaming it will leave you with necks that are not concentric with the bullet.

Definitely make sure your scale is correct. You can buy check weights pretty inexpensively.

 

[Rsadams]

Just went through the same problem,shooting mild loads in .223 in a 5.56 chamber.. Turns out as many have stated cci 400 primers flatten easily. But those primers look rough... And the hard to lift bolt Handle is kinda a give away...still I think the cci 400 are not helping.. I was told to switch to br-4 or cci 450s...

 

[Rsadams]

Yes, every CCI 400 I have fired through this rifle has cratered, regardless of case, powder, charge or bullet. I only tried three times to the range, several different kinds of loads each time. Tried ladder tests first going in .2 gr increments from 2 grains below max to max. Saw the primers and the second trip I tried just shooting groups but all loads were well under max. Saw the same cratering and today went with 14 different loads and quit after shooting 7 groups. All were minimum charges and all cratered.

Any risk in chambering primed cases with no powder or bullet and firing them? If they crater then, it has to be the firing pin, right?

I don't think you will learn much from just popping a primer it will just shove the case forward but no charge to push it back against the bolt face.. Most of the time this results in a primer backing out.. But I can't see what it will hurt..

 

[TAJ45]

I immediately keyed on the mixed brass. However, with the same results with every handload you've put through it, yes, firing pin. When, for whatever reason you need thicker cups, maybe try the CCI 41 or the Fed AR designated. I'm fortunate in that I still have 6k of the Wolf. I am using the 450s in a souped up XC w/Palma small primer brass. OTH, I'll soon be 70 and just now starting to climb the hill of Precision Reloading. Fun times, read, ask questions, question answers politely like you have been and you'll be miles ahead.

 

[spinconn]

Think about it. If the case neck can't expand enough to release the bullet, what happens to pressure? It goes up. Some brass is really thick in the neck and some has "lumps" in it. If you can't insert a bullet into a fired case, you have a problem. My Model 12 220 Swift had that problem.

Turning the neck is best for accuracy. Reaming it will leave you with necks that are not concentric with the bullet.

Definitely make sure your scale is correct. You can buy check weights pretty inexpensively.

I have never turned necks. I need to look at the tools needed for that.

 

[spinconn]

I immediately keyed on the mixed brass. However, with the same results with every handload you've put through it, yes, firing pin. When, for whatever reason you need thicker cups, maybe try the CCI 41 or the Fed AR designated. I'm fortunate in that I still have 6k of the Wolf. I am using the 450s in a souped up XC w/Palma small primer brass. OTH, I'll soon be 70 and just now starting to climb the hill of Precision Reloading. Fun times, read, ask questions, question answers politely like you have been and you'll be miles ahead.

The brass all started out as factory ammo and for purposes of working up loads, it was all sorted first by brand, and then by weight.

This is super getting so many comments; I have a number of things to check out and sort through. Thank you much guys.

 

[jlow]

Yes, every CCI 400 I have fired through this rifle has cratered, regardless of case, powder, charge or bullet. I only tried three times to the range, several different kinds of loads each time. Tried ladder tests first going in .2 gr increments from 2 grains below max to max. Saw the primers and the second trip I tried just shooting groups but all loads were well under max. Saw the same cratering and today went with 14 different loads and quit after shooting 7 groups. All were minimum charges and all cratered.

Any risk in chambering primed cases with no powder or bullet and firing them? If they crater then, it has to be the firing pin, right?

The problem with CCI 400 is their thin cup, that is why it takes very little pressure to cause cratering and potentially pieced primers. That is not to say the charge that caused this is too hot or not. You can certainly chamber and fire primed case with no powder/bullet but you won't see cratering because there is no pressure. Thin cup cratering is caused by pressure, the problem is not too much pressure but too thin/weak primer cup.

 

[dickn52]

That stuck bolt handle was a clear warning that you were well over the edge of pressure. Also, the photo shows at least 2 blown rather than cratered primers. Since it does not happen with factory ammo, its certainly your loads that are causing the high pressure. Go back to square one and start at lower pressure loads.

Did the same thing with my Sav LRPV two weeks ago. Had two cases simply not ejectable until they cooled down. That load went straight to an AR and worked fine. Dropped back and started again and found a load that worked just fine at a lower speed. Pushed it just a tad too far.

 

[billlarson]

That stuck bolt handle was a clear warning that you were well over the edge of pressure. Also, the photo shows at least 2 blown rather than cratered primers. Since it does not happen with factory ammo, its certainly your loads that are causing the high pressure. Go back to square one and start at lower pressure loads.

+2

 

[Tuxedo007]

I stopped reading when I saw you were using CCI400 primers. It is well known that CCI400 will flatten/crater even with mild loads. Do a Google search and change your primers.

While CCI400 primers do crater/flatten, the hard bolt lift & the blown primers would indicate there is excessive pressure! In my .223, I've had good results using IMR-4895! IMR-4895 & H4895 do have slightly different burning rates! If you are close to the "red line" with the data for one of the 2 powders, using the "other" powder could give pressure problems! If you can find the Tul(Russian) primers, you will still need to work up the load. Changing any components in a load, especially a "warmish" load, prudence & safety must be practiced! Good Luck!

 

[Tuxedo007]

I feel your pain and I don't meant to make light of it as I have also been there. But the problem with the CCI400 is real and until you move away from them, you are going to have problems unless you are only shooting light loads.

Don't toss the primers!!! While the cups may be softer than Russian or "Arsenal" primers, I don't think they are your problem. Rather they are the indicator!

 

[rjtfroggy]

I have fired thousands of loads with CCI 400 primers and have never had a problem. I also shoot a Savage model 12 in 223 and use almost a max load of IMR 4895 and a 60gr, Sierra with out a problem.
If my opinion counts I say revisit your reloading technique. Instead of neck sizing, full length size and then re trim to length
Then check your OAL making sure you are not jammed into the lands (pressure spike). If you still pierce the primer, take the bolt apart and round off the firing pin to get rid of any sharp edges ( maybe try this first). then report back.

 

[spinconn]

In my first post I recounted pressure signs from three different range trips. The sticky bolt was on the first when I did have max loads. The last range trip produced the two photos and every load was a minimum load, was less than 2.260 in overall cartridge length and less than 1.760 in case length. They were all neck sized however, with a Lee Collet Neck Size Die.

I have again checked my log and all were min. loads. I don't have verification scale weights but I again checked bullet weights from 170 grain to 53 grain and the scale checked out with those.

Today I am going to scour the local shops and try to find at least one box of primer that is not CCI 400. I will then load exactly the same loads, all minimum, in exactly the same cases (except for sizing) and try them with the other brand of primer. I will neck size some and full length size others. If I haven't blown myself up I will report back.

 

[jden]

Only ones I could find locally, so I bought a bunch.

. . . anyone want to buy 2,950 primers?

In MHO primers aren't your problem, Back off your powder charge. I have never had a problem with CCI primers cratering or blowing. Invest in a chronograph and a good set of scales. Start low on your powder charge since we all know powder velocity will change from lot to lot.

 

[dickn52]

In MHO primers aren't your problem, Back off your powder charge. I have never had a problem with CCI primers cratering or blowing. Invest in a chronograph and a good set of scales. Start low on your powder charge since we all know powder velocity will change from lot to lot.

I sure hope you're right since I have about 6,000 CCI400's stored and waiting. I have never had an issue with the primer, but have pushed the load a couple of times.

 

[jlow]

Please read this technical article on Primer on the Parent “AccShooter Site”. You can see why we think CCI400 have a thin primer cup.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/primers-and-pressure-analysis/

 

[jden]

Please read this technical article on Primer on the Parent “AccShooter Site”. You can see why we think CCI400 have a thin primer cup.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/primers-and-pressure-analysis/

Is .005 enough to cause that his problem? Maybe so but I doubt it.

 

[jlow]

Is .005 enough to cause that his problem? Maybe so but I doubt it.

Sure, 5 thousands is surely not a lot, but well compared to Rem 7 ½ which is 25 thousands, CCI400 is a whole 20% thinner and in mechanical terms, that is a WHOLE BUNCH…

What would YOU consider significantly thinner????

 

[DHuffman]

I stopped reading when I saw you were using CCI400 primers. It is well known that CCI400 will flatten/crater even with mild loads. Do a Google search and change your primers.

This /\ combined with a savage firing pin / bolt head. I use either 450s or br4s and still get cratering and pierce one occasionally when I to max loads.

 

[GrocMax]

Would also recommend this handy little tool, especially if using once fired or range brass-

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...swage-gage-primer-pocket-gauge-prod71030.aspx

Don't use brass that the no-go side will fit, toss it. Don't put full power loads on cases the go side has a lot wiggle room but the no-go won't fit, you'll get a feel for how far they are opening up after using the tool for awhile.

PS- New 6BR Lapua brass the go side will not engage but a slight amount if at all.

If using mixed headstamp brass cull out the headstamps that show high weight averages. Reduced case volume can deliver a surprise.
Example- If A, B and C headstamps all weigh between 91.5-93.5g but D headstamps avg. 96-98g, cull out the D and use a different load.