Are These Primers Cratered?

[spinconn]

I am trying to work up loads for a new rifle and think I may have pressure problems. If it matters, it is a Savage 12 VLP .223 with 9" twist.

My first effort was all within published limits and 10% below max and I had a few rounds that were hard to chamber but the rest were OK, so I figured that was faulty resizing. However, the primers looked funny and I had one round that left a stuck bolt handle. I fired several kinds of factory ammo as well and there were no issues with it.

I went back today and again the primers look like they may be cratered, but I am not sure.

All loads were minimum, and all within the spec COAL. All cases were neck sized and trimmed to the same length. I used several types of bullet and several types of brass. I have tried several different powders, but today I only used H4895. I again fired factory ammo for comparison and there were no problems. The one thing all reloads have in common are CCI 400 small rifle primers. The first photo shows a fired factory case on the right for comparison. The second photo also shows the factory primer on the right, but on top you can see one of the reloads which has a black fired primer.

I am not sure if this is cratering or not. All my factory primers are brass colored but my CCI primers are silver colored and maybe that is why they look different to me.

I imagine you can tell I am not an expert at this but I don't know where to go from here as I thought it was unsafe to go below minimum published loads.

It may be impossible to tell from these pictures but can someone tell if this looks like a pressure problem?

By the way, the loads grouped really well.

 

[Riesel]

I haven't shot a .223 in years but have built several rifles based on that cartridge the latest being a 25-45 Sharps. You really push the edge of the envelope with that cartridge attempting to get max fps and I was really crashing those CCI BR primers. Went to Tul Ammo Russian primers and problems went away and accuracy was outstanding. Shooting a 75 grain Hornady in the neighborhood of 3080.

 

[M99]

That stuck bolt handle was a clear warning that you were well over the edge of pressure. Also, the photo shows at least 2 blown rather than cratered primers. Since it does not happen with factory ammo, its certainly your loads that are causing the high pressure. Go back to square one and start at lower pressure loads.

 

[spinconn]

Thanks for the feedback.

I am not real confident in my talent with calipers but the brass all seemed to measure at the datum points as it should. Not sure where to go from here since all the loads were at or close to minimum.

For example, the five on the left photo were 53g SMK HP, CCI 400 pr, Hornady Brass, and 25.0g of H4895. This is listed in my data as a minimum charge. Any suggestions as to how low I should start? Maybe 10%?

If it means anything, all the loads printed at 100 and at 200 yards at the same elevation as factory ammo.

 

[rockable]

It's possible you have something else going on. Can you slip a new bullet into the mouth of the fired Cases? If not, you may have a tight neck and need to turn your case necks.

 

[jlow]

I stopped reading when I saw you were using CCI400 primers. It is well known that CCI400 will flatten/crater even with mild loads. Do a Google search and change your primers.

 

[spinconn]

It's possible you have something else going on. Can you slip a new bullet into the mouth of the fired Cases? If not, you may have a tight neck and need to turn your case necks.

No, I could not. I will look into that.

 

[M-61]

From spinconn:
"I am not real confident in my talent with calipers but the brass all seemed to measure at the datum points as it should."

Not sure what you mean by the above.

As M99 said the stuck bolt handle is a real tip off about pressures.

And the blown primer along with that one in the pic looks like a text book photo for cratering. Cratering is not a great guide but that bottom pic is (to me) a clear sign to stop.

My first thoughts would be to ask have you checked your scale for some kind of accuracy? And (no offence intended) are you sure it was 4895 that went into the cases? I know it's very basic but you have to start at the beginning.

 

[spinconn]

I stopped reading when I saw you were using CCI400 primers. It is well known that CCI400 will flatten/crater even with mild loads. Do a Google search and change your primers.

Only ones I could find locally, so I bought a bunch.

. . . anyone want to buy 2,950 primers?

 

[TheOtherZilla]

That stuck bolt handle was a clear warning that you were well over the edge of pressure. Also, the photo shows at least 2 blown rather than cratered primers. Since it does not happen with factory ammo, its certainly your loads that are causing the high pressure. Go back to square one and start at lower pressure loads.

Not always on a Savage. My Savage 12 has "stuck" bolt handle issues from time to time.. Even with minimum and factory loads.. Savage has bolt problems and extraction becomes ans issue. Happened to me and I thought it was pressure. There are more than a few threads going on over at Savage Shooters about this very issue.

I have also read about firing pin issues causing cratering and blown primers.. I usr Rem 7-1/2 most of the time or CCI BR4's..

 

[wholman]

you need to check your powder scale with onother scale

 

[spinconn]

From spinconn:
"I am not real confident in my talent with calipers but the brass all seemed to measure at the datum points as it should."

Not sure what you mean by the above.

As M99 said the stuck bolt handle is a real tip off about pressures.

And the blown primer along with that one in the pic looks like a text book photo for cratering. Cratering is not a great guide but that bottom pic is (to me) a clear sign to stop.

My first thoughts would be to ask have you checked your scale for some kind of accuracy? And (no offence intended) are you sure it was 4895 that went into the cases? I know it's very basic but you have to start at the beginning.

I measured overall cartridge length, case length, length to shoulder-neck junction, length to body-shoulder junction, head diameter, diameter body-shoulder junction, and neck diameter. The overall cartridge length is also no greater than factory rounds I have shot without incident.

I am sure it was 4895. Also, I have seen the same thing with Reloader 10x, IMR 4895, IMR 3031, IMR 4064, AA2520 and Varget. I keep thinking it has to be my scale. It is new and unproven, but I have checked it by weighing bullets and it was +/- .2 gr for several different bullet weights.


I just returned to reloading after decades away, maybe at 67 I am too feeble for this stuff. I'm going to go weigh some more bullets and double check the scale.

 

[jlow]

Only ones I could find locally, so I bought a bunch.

. . . anyone want to buy 2,950 primers?

I feel your pain and I don't meant to make light of it as I have also been there. But the problem with the CCI400 is real and until you move away from them, you are going to have problems unless you are only shooting light loads.

 

[gotcha]

Hard for me to tell much of anything on the top photo.( it won't enlarge) But the bottom photo clearly shows cratering on 3rd down & 5th down. I also have a .223 VLP and it will crater with most any primer except BR-4 were its still noticeable just not quite so obvious. One of these days I'll send my bolt off to Gre-tan and have it bushed to solve the problem. I don't think you'll solve the problem 'til you get the firing pin issue resolved..................... 25.0g of H4895 & 53 gr bullet shouldn't be showing cratering. If you have the F/P bushed also have the nose of the pin radiused slightly. It may be too "pointy" and actually piercing primers which seems to be happening with bottom photo, top cartridge. Hope this helps ............... BTW I'm 74 and still doin' it, Man up

 

[M-61]

I measured overall cartridge length, case length, length to shoulder-neck junction, length to body-shoulder junction, head diameter, diameter body-shoulder junction, and neck diameter. The overall cartridge length is also no greater than factory rounds I have shot without incident.

I am sure it was 4895. Also, I have seen the same thing with Reloader 10x, IMR 4895, IMR 3031, IMR 4064, AA2520 and Varget. I keep thinking it has to be my scale. It is new and unproven, but I have checked it by weighing bullets and it was +/- .2 gr for several different bullet weights.


I just returned to reloading after decades away, maybe at 67 I am too feeble for this stuff. I'm going to go weigh some more bullets and double check the scale.

You are not too feeble......you have a problem and it's with your reloads not your rifle (factory ammo shot fine if I read your post correctly).
It's a matter of finding the error.
When you said you have the 'same thing' with all those powders you listed do you mean blown primers etc? In other words all of these produced similar results as your pictures?

 

[deadwooddick]

you need to check your powder scale with onother scale

Actually you need to check the scale w/ a recognized (certified) check weight. There ain't no way in 4377 one scale is gonna "verify" another scale.

 

[spinconn]

Hard for me to tell much of anything on the top photo.( it won't enlarge) But the bottom photo clearly shows cratering on 3rd down & 5th down. I also have a .223 VLP and it will crater with most any primer except BR-4 were its still noticeable just not quite so obvious. One of these days I'll send my bolt off to Gre-tan and have it bushed to solve the problem. I don't think you'll solve the problem 'til you get the firing pin issue resolved..................... 25.0g of H4895 & 53 gr bullet shouldn't be showing cratering. If you have the F/P bushed also have the nose of the pin radiused slightly. It may be too "pointy" and actually piercing primers which seems to be happening with bottom photo, top cartridge. Hope this helps ............... BTW I'm 74 and still doin' it, Man up

I feel much better hearing about your .223 VLP, and even better about your age; good advice old timer, I shall endeavor to soldier on.

 

[243winxb]

2 problems. CCI 400 and mixed headstamp brass.

 

[Shynloco]

Spinconn,
In your initial post, you told us what primers you were using, but didn't tell us what powder you were loading. Pressure is caused by primers, but rather react to "pressure that can be caused by the powder. I have used CCI 400's (put into Lapua Brass) in that very same rifle you cited and had excellent results (@100 yards) using H335 and BLC2. So may I suggest that before you throw all those primer overboard, reconsider and examine what may be causing that "pressure." Pressure can be the result of many things and cratering, heavy bolt lift are indicators of that problem, not the cause.

Alex

 

[spinconn]

You are not too feeble......you have a problem and it's with your reloads not your rifle (factory ammo shot fine if I read your post correctly).
It's a matter of finding the error.
When you said you have the 'same thing' with all those powders you listed do you mean blown primers etc? In other words all of these produced similar results as your pictures?

Yes, every CCI 400 I have fired through this rifle has cratered, regardless of case, powder, charge or bullet. I only tried three times to the range, several different kinds of loads each time. Tried ladder tests first going in .2 gr increments from 2 grains below max to max. Saw the primers and the second trip I tried just shooting groups but all loads were well under max. Saw the same cratering and today went with 14 different loads and quit after shooting 7 groups. All were minimum charges and all cratered.

Any risk in chambering primed cases with no powder or bullet and firing them? If they crater then, it has to be the firing pin, right?