Are These Primers Cratered?

[mac86951]

I'll add one observation. I see mil brass. Often cases are thicker for mil brass, thus pressure is higher than with say factory Winchester 223 brass.

Bolt lift is a sure sign of pressure. Cratered primers along might be resolved with a harder primer cup such as a CCI 450; but that won't fix the bolt issue. Perhaps, you'll find a lower pressure load that works fine with your current materials?

Edit; im not the first to mention this. Let us know what you find.

-Mac

 

[GrocMax]

While this may be true for 308 brass, it ain't for 223. LC, Fed commercial, Win NATO, Win commercial I have are all close to same avg. weight. The NATO cross brass is on the light end of the range of all the stuff I've had. It varies but 'NATO is heavier' is definitely not true for 223. Have bunch of LC in 02, 05, 09, 10, 11, 13 and 15 and they range from 91g-93g or so with very few lights or heavies. No discernible difference in years.

But anyways the point is entirely valid, smaller the case a bigger difference a heavy small capacity case will make if it gets snuck in on a borderline load.

Often cases are thicker for mil brass, thus pressure is higher than with say factory Winchester 223 brass.

-Mac

 

[itchyTF]

I measured overall cartridge length, case length, length to shoulder-neck junction, length to body-shoulder junction, head diameter, diameter body-shoulder junction, and neck diameter. The overall cartridge length is also no greater than factory rounds I have shot without incident.

Have you measured the chamber length? If any of the cases are, by chance, exceeding the chamber length you are crimping the bullet and the case can't expand at that point (mouth of the case). Pressure!

 

[Langey]

I am trying to work up loads for a new rifle and think I may have pressure problems.

rockable said: ↑
It's possible you have something else going on. Can you slip a new bullet into the mouth of the fired Cases? If not, you may have a tight neck and need to turn your case necks.
No, I could not. I will look into that.

There's something wrong here. A factory new Savage barrel should not show indications of a tight chamber neck. Is this rifle new or used? If it's used could it have a custom barrel?

 

[ASbobcat]

I am trying to work up loads for a new rifle and think I may have pressure problems. If it matters, it is a Savage 12 VLP .223 with 9" twist.

My first effort was all within published limits and 10% below max and I had a few rounds that were hard to chamber but the rest were OK, so I figured that was faulty resizing. However, the primers looked funny and I had one round that left a stuck bolt handle. I fired several kinds of factory ammo as well and there were no issues with it.

I went back today and again the primers look like they may be cratered, but I am not sure.

All loads were minimum, and all within the spec COAL. All cases were neck sized and trimmed to the same length. I used several types of bullet and several types of brass. I have tried several different powders, but today I only used H4895. I again fired factory ammo for comparison and there were no problems.View attachment 990359 View attachment 990360 The one thing all reloads have in common are CCI 400 small rifle primers. The first photo shows a fired factory case on the right for comparison. The second photo also shows the factory primer on the right, but on top you can see one of the reloads which has a black fired primer.

I am not sure if this is cratering or not. All my factory primers are brass colored but my CCI primers are silver colored and maybe that is why they look different to me.

I imagine you can tell I am not an expert at this but I don't know where to go from here as I thought it was unsafe to go below minimum published loads.

It may be impossible to tell from these pictures but can someone tell if this looks like a pressure problem?

By the way, the loads grouped really well.

As many have already pointed out, CCI 400 are very soft and thin. Your problem is made worse by the Savage firing pin hole which is most likely very large (I've owned several PT actions). If you replace the bolt head with one from PT&G and switch to CCI 450 or Rem 7 1/2 primers, your problem will probably go away.

 

[spinconn]

I went to the range today and I believe, with the help of the folks here at the forum, we have solved this mystery. As Gotcha first mentioned, and repeated by others, I believe I have a not uncommon issue with the Savage firing pin-firing pin hole relation, together with CCI 400 primers.

First, I misunderstood one question and tried to fit a bullet into a case which had been resized. I went back to that and, yes, I can easily slip a bullet into a fired case, and as you would guess, I have a factory barrel.

Yesterday my son, who is more knowledgeable than I with hand loading, suggested I call Sierra and speak to a technician. I did that and the man I talked to was pretty certain that it was a case of the bolt head firing pin hole being too large for the firing pin diameter. He said it was annoying but not a problem, although he suggested I might hide my brass from sight of other reloaders. He thought different primers might make a difference but perhaps only to the degree of cratering.

Yesterday I rounded up some additional primers; CCI 450, CCI 41, and Federal 205M. Last night I double checked the adjustments of my dies and loaded the lightest published loads I could with the components I had on hand. This tuned out to be Reloader 10x with a charge of 20.0 gr. I combined this with brass that has been fired three times including batches of 5 rounds of Hornady brass, 5 of Winchester, 5 of brass with a "PPU" headstamp and 5 more with Winchester. Each group of five had one case primed with F205M, two with CCI 450 and two with CCI 41. I also fired a few more from the last batch that were loaded with 20.0 gr of R10x but with CCI 400 primers.

I had two batches out of the above, with half full length sized and half neck sized with a Lee Collet Neck Size Die. This gave me at least one cartridge with each brass type, each primer type and the same powder charge, both neck sized and full length sized. I then repeated this with a charge of 20.1 gr of R10x.

Finally I used two different bullets, 53 gr SMK HP and 55 gr Hornady V Max.

I fired all of these at 100 yards and let the barrel cool before each shot.

When the smoke cleared, I still had cratering with the CCI 400. I had no cratering with the CCI 41, CCI 450 or F205M. There were no other signs of pressure. By the way, the accuracy was excellent with this light load. There was no effort to set a certain seating depth and all cartridges were well within spec for overall length.

I guess if you have a Savage, or at least certain Savages, you might want to experiment with primers before buying a large quantity. At the risk of repeating myself, anyone want to trade for a few thousand CCI 400's?

 

[jlow]

Yes, the problem with CCI400 is unfortunately learned daily by different people (including myself) and will continue on.... This is one of the most common problems we have seen on gun boards but yet many people still have a hard time accepting it.

 

[rockable]

Glad you figured it out.

 

[Riesel]

It's great that you solved the primer problem and that accuracy was excellent. Hopefully the bolt operates as a bolt should. I'm not familiar with .223 reloading as I haven't done that caliber in a long time, but it sounds like it's time to move that load up and look for the next node keeping an eye on pressure and velocity. Looks like it's going to be a great shooter.

 

[waterfwlr]

So what was locking up the bolt?

 

[spinconn]

So what was locking up the bolt?

In my first post I was summarizing the results from 3 range trips. On the first trip I did ladder testing and with those loads I ran from 2 grains below max up to max in .2 gr increments. The bolt locked on a max load in a heavy case. I should have not mentioned that as I understood its cause. My confusion was from the primer cratering that continued as I tried lighter loads in the 2d trip, and then absolute minimum loads on the 3rd trip.

 

[ratbuster]

In my first post I was summarizing the results from 3 range trips. On the first trip I did ladder testing and with those loads I ran from 2 grains below max up to max in .2 gr increments. The bolt locked on a max load in a heavy case. I should have not mentioned that as I understood its cause. My confusion was from the primer cratering that continued as I tried lighter loads in the 2d trip, and then absolute minimum loads on the 3rd trip.

Savage is notorious for catering primers because as the Sierra tech said the firing pin is too small for the bore it resides in. This allows the primer cup material to flow backwards into the bore around the pin. If you start pushing pressure in the future you will see the catering happen with tough primers like the CCI 450. The best solution is to buy a new bolt head from Pacific Tool and Guage (PTG), approx $65. IF YOU GO THAT ROUTE YOU MUST HEADSPACE THE NEW BOLT TO THE CHAMBER!! That requires special tools and knowledge which you can aquire or pay a gunsmith to perform. It's a 30 min job maximum so wouldn't cost much.

 

[itchyTF]

Or, get it bushed.

 

[carlsbad]

Or, get it bushed.

I bush every one of my firing pins and dozens for others. I've never seen cratering on a bushed firing pin, no matter what you do. $80 including return shipping. --Jerry

 

[Hammer47]

you need to check your powder scale with onother scale

Just check the scale with a 55 gn bullet. It will tell if the scale is close.

 

[Hammer47]

I bush every one of my firing pins and dozens for others. I've never seen cratering on a bushed firing pin, no matter what you do. $80 including return shipping. --Jerry

He also appears to have a badly off center firing pin too.

 

[carlsbad]

off center not a problem, not uncommon, and looks worse on a 223. --Jerry

 

[Hammer47]

off center not a problem, not uncommon, and looks worse on a 223. --Jerry

Off center is a BIG problem if you have any expecation of accuracy. Poor or inconsistent ignition is certainly to be avoided.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I bush every one of my firing pins and dozens for others. I've never seen cratering on a bushed firing pin, no matter what you do. $80 including return shipping. --Jerry

Does bushing a bolt change the headspacing? I have a Rem that needs it.

 

[carlsbad]

If done correctly, bushing the bolt does not change the headspace. --Jerry