Are "clickers" just a problem for competitors?

[ncageneral]

I know this is an old thread but,,,,,, I purchased some loaded and fired brass off of GB. I pulled the bullets and salvaged the primers. Ran the brass through my FL Redding 6 BR die. They don't chamber. Ran them through an old 308 die to size the area just ahead of the web. They chamber with some resistance. Borrowed a 308 SB RCBS die from my brother, sized, they won't chamber in my rifle at all. Ran them through my Redding FL sizing die and now they chamber easily. I have some loaded rounds that give clickers unfired. I definitely have a problem with the sizing of my fired cases. So, here's the question? Will a small base sizing die cure my problem? I will defer to the experts on this one. I wasn't aware of what a clicker was until I started reading this thread. Its more aggravating than anything else.

 

[Hoot]

Have you already adjusted the Redding FL Die for the desired amount of shoulder bump in your 6BR? I'm assuming you're having issues sizing 6BR cases since you didn't exactly say. I ask because if you haven't adjusted your 6BR die to set the shoulders back yet, you may not be going down far enough over that 6BR brass to size the area just above the web. Shooting in the dark as of yet. Also, when you say "don't chamber", how far in do they go before they seize up?

Hoot

 

[ncageneral]

Have you already adjusted the Redding FL Die for the desired amount of shoulder bump in your 6BR? I'm assuming you're having issues sizing 6BR cases since you didn't exactly say. I ask because if you haven't adjusted your 6BR die to set the shoulders back yet, you may not be going down far enough over that 6BR brass to size the area just above the web. Shooting in the dark as of yet. Also, when you say "don't chamber", how far in do they go before they seize up?

Hoot

I am sizing to the shell holder; I get clickers on freshly loaded rounds. It's been an ongoing battle since I started with this rifle. I started with new Lapua brass and after the first firing i thought, what was that, then go to reading the forum and found an answer. I will find a way to cure this. It's mostly aggravating, not functionally detrimental to what I am using the rifle for. Still aggravating.

 

[rwj]

If it happened on the first firing of new Lapua cases, I’d suspect the chamber may have been formed using a worn reamer and is undersized. My recommendation is to contact Harrell’s and purchase the correct sizing die.

Full Length Die

For the best fit on Full Size Die - please call (540) 380-2683 Hardened stainless steel .002 undersized for easy chambering. Can be cut to length for short chambers. Comes in PPC, BR Remington, 6.5 x 47 and Dasher.

www.harrellsprecision.com

 

[STS]

I am sizing to the shell holder; I get clickers on freshly loaded rounds. It's been an ongoing battle since I started with this rifle. I started with new Lapua brass and after the first firing i thought, what was that, then go to reading the forum and found an answer. I will find a way to cure this. It's mostly aggravating, not functionally detrimental to what I am using the rifle for. Still aggravating.

The most likely answer to your problem is not a mismatch between the chamber and sizing die, I would say your issue is a deficiency in primary extraction.

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

ncageneral: so did you run the ram up and screw the die in til it hit the shellholder? or did you do the above run a case in all the way and while all the way up eyeball the shelholder and die bottom to see if there was a gap? If there is a gap you need to lower ram an add a 1/8 more turmdown to the die. Keep doing this til there no more gap. This remove the slack in the rams linkage. And it sized the case down a little lower.

Frank

 

[rwj]

The most likely answer to your problem is not a mismatch between the chamber and sizing die, I would say your issue is a deficiency in primary extraction.

Please explain… I’m always willing to learn!

 

[ncageneral]

I said I wasn't going to drink anymore this year..... I ran the brass through a small base die, and it wouldn't chamber, (that brass that reduced in diameter had to go somewhere right), so then I ran it through my FL die and now it chambers. We're gonna find out today after church how that brass and rifle interact with one another. If it clicks after firing well,,,,, the sob is just gonna have to click. I need an excuse to get a new barrel anyway.

 

[Rat Rifle]

I said I wasn't going to drink anymore this year..... I ran the brass through a small base die, and it wouldn't chamber, (that brass that reduced in diameter had to go somewhere right), so then I ran it through my FL die and now it chambers. We're gonna find out today after church how that brass and rifle interact with one another. If it clicks after firing well,,,,, the sob is just gonna have to click. I need an excuse to get a new barrel anyway.

What rifle, what action are You having clickers in ?

 

[STS]

Please explain… I’m always willing to learn!

Clickers usually show up after the brass is fully formed to the chamber. Usually 2x or 3x fired, not on the first firing (unless you're shooting an extreme pressure load). Custom die makers want 2x or 3x fired brass for that reason. If your new Lapua brass was not extracting properly on the first firing, it would suggest that the actions extraction cam surfaces are not working together to pop the case loose from the chamber resulting in the click. There are a few videos around that would be more educational, and easier for you to understand the mechanics of what's happening, than me trying to get the point across by text. Search for "primary extraction" and see what you find.

 

[Liven The Dream]

As said Problem !
You don’t need any .
My .284 F/ Class Rifle with .284 Lapua Brass had the Clicker Problem. No Fun in a Match !
1-800 my Barrel Man “ you need a SB Die
….”
No Problem back to screwing up other ways in a Match .

 

[BoydAllen]

There is an issue here that I do not believe has been fully articulated but some have touched on it with their remedies. The issue is how far down the case the chamber makes contact on cases, vs. haw far down the case the die does. If you look at the bottom of a typical sizing die, you will see a rather generous chamfer in which the die cannot size the case Add to that the thickness of the shell holder above where the head of the case sits, and you have sort of an untouchable zone. If this zone is longer than the distance from the bolt face to where chamber starts making contact with fired brass (Chambers typically have a small chamfer, and then there is the "gap space" and depth of the bolt face.) You have the potential for clickers. The typical solution for this has been to size the part of the case just above this zone smaller with a small base die, that has the same reach problem but which pulls the unsized band down with the part next to it that is sized. IMO a better solution would be to specify a custom die so that it has almost no chamfer depth, and so that the top of the shell holder has to be cut down in order to bump the shoulder of a case. The combination of these two measures with proper consideration of the base diameter of the unfired case in chamber design should prevent click problems. This is not just speculation. I have proof that it works.

I have a Harrell Vari-Base die that is designed to take threaded inserts at the base of the die, they were available in .001 increments. Some time back a case that had been used for testing pressures of loads with different powders for my 6PPC developed a click. This was after many firings. That particular die is a bit long from shoulder to base so that I ran into a problem bumping shoulders of work hardened cases. To solve this problem a friend used his lathe to face off one of my shell holders about .013. As a result, with the die properly set, there is a slight gap between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. I should also mention that the base inserts for the die have almost no chamfer. The day that the click appeared I was, as is my usual practice, loading at the range and as I sat there thinking about my options for solving the problem, given that I do not own a small base die, It occurred to me that slightly unscrewing the base bushing so that it just touched the shortened shell holder, at full stroke, while sizing, might solve the problem. It did, completely. My next firing of the case with with the same charge that caused the click and when I extracted the case there was not click. Subsiquent firings with that die setup did not click. At the time that I unscrewed the insert a little, I knew that it was possible that the force of sizing might spoil the fine threads, but I have always been willing to take a little risk that I can afford to learn something. Luckily there was no problem.

The fellows that have cut the shoulders out of dies and cut off a bit of their basses have essentially done what I did, and IMO that is the best way to deal with the problem for an existing chamber. It removes the over deep chamfer, has the base opeing smaller, and decouples bump from body diameter sizing.

There is more that can be said about clickers relating to chamber design, but I will save that story for another time.

 

[rwj]

Clickers usually show up after the brass is fully formed to the chamber. Usually 2x or 3x fired, not on the first firing (unless you're shooting an extreme pressure load). Custom die makers want 2x or 3x fired brass for that reason. If your new Lapua brass was not extracting properly on the first firing, it would suggest that the actions extraction cam surfaces are not working together to pop the case loose from the chamber resulting in the click. There are a few videos around that would be more educational, and easier for you to understand the mechanics of what's happening, than me trying to get the point across by text. Search for "primary extraction" and see what you find.

Clickers are the result of the case base being larger than the chamber and essentially becoming a tapered interference fit. I once had a new chamber that was cut with a worn reamer that had clickers when trying to extract unfired new Lapua cases. The problem was anticipated as resistance to closing the bolt was detected when chambering a round…

 

[STS]

Clickers are the result of the case base being larger than the chamber and essentially becoming a tapered interference fit. I once had a new chamber that was cut with a worn reamer that had clickers when trying to extract unfired new Lapua cases. The problem was anticipated as resistance to closing the bolt was detected when chambering a round…

You are correct for the most part, but chamber/die/brass fit isn't the only source of the click. If you ever have an action that has poor PE, you will recognize that there is more than one source. Been there and done that unfortunately.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

To the op's question...I despise clickers and any bolt lift issues in competition..It's a pet peeve for me and it really slows you down as well as upsetting the gun in the bags, yada yada...But, I suppose in a hunting or plinking situation, it's not a huge deal. It won't make you miss that critter on the FIRST shot but it may well slow you down or prevent a second shot if needed. Probably also depends how bad it is and how you cycle the bolt, too. Best to fix it imho but lots of factory Remingtons, for example, out there with very little primary extraction cam engagement. They still sold them like crazy.

 

[ncageneral]

I had a chance to run some of this new to me brass through my rifle this afternoon with the previously mentioned SB Die then FL size die treatment, the problem is not 100% fixed but has been minimized to the point where it doesn't aggravate me nearly as bad. This isn't a competition rifle, but a nice coyote rifle. I put 5 65 gr VMax bullets into a nice 3/4" group at 100 yds, if a coyote walks away, it won't be because the rifle isn't accurate enough. Thanks for the help y'all. Happy New Year.

 

[Rat Rifle]

I had a chance to run some of this new to me brass through my rifle this afternoon with the previously mentioned SB Die then FL size die treatment, the problem is not 100% fixed but has been minimized to the point where it doesn't aggravate me nearly as bad. This isn't a competition rifle, but a nice coyote rifle. I put 5 65 gr VMax bullets into a nice 3/4" group at 100 yds, if a coyote walks away, it won't be because the rifle isn't accurate enough. Thanks for the help y'all. Happy New Year.

You seem reluctant to tell us what kind of rifle You have the clicker issue. As mentioned previously, some actions click because of the design of the Primary Extraction. The worst offender I have experienced is the Savages. Savage actions click when opened, even on an empty chamber.

 

[ncageneral]

You seem reluctant to tell us what kind of rifle You have the clicker issue. As mentioned previously, some actions click because of the design of the Primary Extraction. The worst offender I have experienced is the Savages. Savage actions click when opened, even on an empty chamber.

Reminton 700. I also think it has issues with the extraction cam after comparing to the other Rem 700 I have.

 

[ncageneral]

Clickers solved I did fail to mention the action during all the previous post I guess, its a Rem 700 with the J lock, it has an unknown barrel that shoots very well for my intended purposes, coyotes and just fun puling the trigger. I had loaded 50 using the method outlined earlier 308 SB die, followed by a run through my FL Redding die. I finally made it to them in the rotation and noticed no clicks. So I ordered a SB FL Redding size die. It seems that my clicker problem has disappeared. Thanks to all of the advice on this issue, I am hoping this is the end of this story. Remember to go vote, Republicans be sure to cast your ballot Nov. 5, democrats Nov. 6. Lord help us!

 

[SEPAboltrifle]

"Clickers" and bolt lift resistance at ramp stage of bolt cycle were eliminated on my wife's .300 PRC with the use of an Area 419 "M" series sizing die. The die properly sizes the case at the web area and allows precise control of shoulder setback. Smooth extraction allows sight picture and cheek weld to be maintained round-to-round.