Annealing time for 6BR (induction)

[Skeptic123]

Isn't the answer similar to what you do to see if any new reloading process is worthwhile - let the target tell you? The reason I anneal is to get consistent shoulder bumps when resizing and consistent neck tension. It's pretty straight forward to tell if both of these are occurring with the amount of annealing you are doing. Too much or inconsistent spring back - anneal more. No neck tension - anneal less.

 

[marchx]

Isn't the answer similar to what you do to see if any new reloading process is worthwhile - let the target tell you? The reason I anneal is to get consistent shoulder bumps when resizing and consistent neck tension. It's pretty straight forward to tell if both of these are occurring with the amount of annealing you are doing. Too much or inconsistent spring back - anneal more. No neck tension - anneal less.

Exactly. My next range day should give me the answer.

 

[rsbhunter]

Marchx, 100% correct...although no harm comes from it, and it "may" help alittle, the benefits of annealing arent there til you reach a given temp for a given time....that could be 750°, but it would be held for hours at that temp....your brass WILL be annealed...from neck to base!!!! I believe the AMP machine does a fantastic job, but I read that is has a variable wattage capability to increase or decrease wattage, thus heating. You can reach annealing stage at a high temp for a short time....thereby localizing heat spread..... Any way, having the nsck/shoulder junction glowing "s!ightly" isn't going to trash your brass, as is widely believed....rsbhunter

 

[6BRA]

What if I said I have personally shot , a case with the dual torch method BS, that had been under fire for over 8 seconds with twin torches. Shoulder were glowing....no issues. Consistency. Are we allowed to post links from other sites here?

 

[marchx]

What if I said I have personally shot , a case with the dual torch method BS, that had been under fire for over 8 seconds with twin torches. Shoulder were glowing....no issues. Consistency. Are we allowed to post links from other sites here?

My question is: how to perform annealing process in order to get (a) consistent shoulder bump, (b) consistent neck tension during seating process. At the time being I am not 100% positive I do it right.

 

[rsbhunter]

i can easily believe that, as in the Cortina video, he had the case in the flame for 10 seconds, glowing REAL red, and still had seating pressure. Only time i saw cases with dead soft necks was at about 15-20 seconds,,,,But, as in all reloading , research and practice pays in the end.....rsbhunter

 

[rsbhunter]

marchx, i used the dual torch method, and it worked for me....in a dim room, heat until the NECK starts to glow red, then stop....check the shoulder and body area to make sure the heat line hasnt gone more than about 1/4" down the body of the case....as stated, there is a decent amount to time variance that it can be in the flame, but id rather error on safety side .... on my 6 mm Dasher, i was in the flame for right at 5.5 seconds with Norma brass.....rsbhunter

 

[6BRA]

My question is: how to perform annealing process in order to get (a) consistent shoulder bump, (b) consistent neck tension during seating process. At the time being I am not 100% positive I do it right.

get the neck red...to start no need to go into the shoulders..but if you did and not for long, I wouldnt worry.

 

[6BRA]

From the article I sent....thus Pretend Annealing....
this isnt directed toward anyone here....just a clip from an article..


"If you knew anything about annealing C26000 70/30 cartridge brass, you'd know that recrystallization is taken to be almost instantaneous above 700 C. You would also know that recrystallization is the mechanism which softens brass initially & that, low temperature stress relieving has little to no effect on the malleability of brass.
You'd also know that within the realms of very short time frames (seconds) the initial brass cold worked state is the primary driver of recrystallization (annealing) with regard to times & % of annealing.
To simplify all this back & forth, you could simply ask me why I'm annealing this way?
What am I basing my methods off of?
What if any issues have I had?
How do the cases size & seat.?
I know that asking simple, relevant questions like that doesn't lend well to reacting with personal attacks, vitriol & rhetoric but, you may learn something &, others may be interested as well."

 

[rsbhunter]

Ditto....here is a link to a video that is part of a series that he "seems" to know what he's talking about....???? Just in the interest of research....

rsbhunter

 

[Webster]

Ok, I painted the shoulder and the neck (outside). Tempilaq on both neck and shoulder turned brown in the same moment.

What's with turning brown. It reaches the indicated temp when it melts not when it changes color.

 

[rsbhunter]

What needs to be understood is that annealing is a process of TIME and TEMPERATURE. If you doubt this, watch some of the top barrel producers "normalizing" or stress relieving their barrels....there put into ovens at a given temp for hours!!!! They have the capability to use induction heating to bring it to a certain temp, but it is harder to hold it at that temp with induction. PLEASE, get on the internet, look at sights that deal with metallurgy , especially.... There are sights that explain annealing brass (as a metal) and the parameters that are needed to reach anneal, not stress relief...I'm not claiming to know alot about the process, but I've done a lot of reading, watching and research on the subject. I've learned that it is NOT as easy as putting 750° tempilac on the inside of a case and melting it. People even have different beliefs on whether it's supposed to melt, turn black, etc. We have all the info at our fingertips....the internet used with some filtering of the supplier of that info, will give us a lot of correct info...rsbhunter

 

[marchx]

What's with turning brown. It reaches the indicated temp when it melts not when it changes color.

It melts and changes colour at the same time.

 

[Ole timer]

What needs to be understood is that annealing is a process of TIME and TEMPERATURE. If you doubt this, watch some of the top barrel producers "normalizing" or stress relieving their barrels....there put into ovens at a given temp for hours!!!! They have the capability to use induction heating to bring it to a certain temp, but it is harder to hold it at that temp with induction. PLEASE, get on the internet, look at sights that deal with metallurgy , especially.... There are sights that explain annealing brass (as a metal) and the parameters that are needed to reach anneal, not stress relief...I'm not claiming to know alot about the process, but I've done a lot of reading, watching and research on the subject. I've learned that it is NOT as easy as putting 750° tempilac on the inside of a case and melting it. People even have different beliefs on whether it's supposed to melt, turn black, etc. We have all the info at our fingertips....the internet used with some filtering of the supplier of that info, will give us a lot of correct info...rsbhunter

This,..Time AND Temperature. No way 750 degrees is enough to get the job in a few seconds. By the time the Tempilac melts, the temperature has passed well beyond 750 degrees.
Only reason I ever use 750 degree Tempilac is when first setting up a cartridge for the first time and insuring I didn't anneal below the shoulder to far. I use an induction annealer, so it doesn't matter if I paint it on the outside because it doesn't heat from the outside. I don't use it after I get the cartridge set up and recorded. The Tempilac does leave a straight line all around the shoulder where the temp never reached 750 degrees so I can set how far below the shoulder I am annealing. That's all I use it for.
The heat is far more than 750 degrees on the neck and shoulder in order to get the job done before the heat can migrate down to the case body, even if you are using a torch.
The idea is to get a consistent anneal every time to achieve consistent neck tension, shoulder bumping, etc.
This is one of the best videos describing what is happening to the brass, and what you are trying to achieve by a metallurgist. Hope this is useful to someone.

 

[divingin]

For those that want a lot of good info, and aren't averse to a bit (hah!) of reading, AMP has a good series of articles. Starts here:

Induction Annealing Brass | Our Research | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

Further installments available under:

Induction Annealer | The Latest Research | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

 

[SGK]

Sheesh! It’s gotta be on the inside of the neck!

No it doesn't. He is using an induction annealer.

 

[SGK]

@marchx you might want to read the conversation from this post here #2,733 , or perhaps a bit before, onwards.

 

[joshb]

No it doesn't. He is using an induction annealer.

Explain to me what the difference is, please. The heat still hits it from the outside of the case, heating the Templac first. How can you know if that temp goes into the case? All the way into the case? I just don’t get the theory you’re proposing.

 

[SGK]

The heat isn't "projected" onto the case with induction. You could literally stick your finger (if you had a really skinny one) between the work coil and the case and the only heat you'd feel is that radiating FROM the heating case. (The work coil does warm over a series of cases but it isn't heating the case like a radiating element.) The heat occurs within the case by electromagnetic heating. How deep the direct annealing process goes is a function of the frequency. But brass is such a good conductor that you're not going to see any difference between inside and outside. Certainly not a difference that can be examined via Tempilaq.

Think of an induction stove top. Put a pan on it and turn it on. The pan gets very hot. Yes, the glass gets a bit hot - because it has a hot pan sitting on it - but the glass isn't radiating heat into the pan (quite the opposite is happening).

 

[Straightshooter1]

Explain to me what the difference is, please. The heat still hits it from the outside of the case, heating the Templac first. How can you know if that temp goes into the case? All the way into the case? I just don’t get the theory you’re proposing.

Induction heating does not heat from the outside. The magnetic field within the coil creates electrical currents in that area inside the brass and its the electrical resistance to those currents that generates the heat from within the metal (brass in this case). So the temperature is pretty uniform throughout the thickness of the case and not a convection transfer from one side inside to the other kind of thing.

This is my basic understanding of it.