Annealing till glow or 750??

[muleman69]

Tons of good advice here and it is all good, different brass ,brass thickness ,carbon in necks Etc,Etc. I use the tempilaq, for me it is a good starting point then I can go from there.

 

[Broad Side]

So I have an annealeez. I also have 750 tempilaq. With the cheap hornady brass I have, if I turn the lights out the brass gets the deep glow right at 750 degrees. Perfect. Then when I do the lapua brass I turned to the same neck thickness to the hornady and run it through the annealer I see no glow when the tempilaq disappears at 750. Even if I slow down the speed a lot, way past the 750 mark, I still don’t see a glo. What the heck. I do not want to super over anneal the brass and ruin it. Thoughts please

I am not an expert but I believe that riflewoman is.

My experience with a different brand of cheap (free) brass compared to Lapua mirrors yours. We all know Lapua holds up to repeated firings much better than the cheap stuff. Therefore, it seems (to me) safe to say that the metal is different. After trying to anneal Lapua with the machine set up for the cheap stuff, and finding that the seating effort was higher than expected, I took a leap of faith and started operating under the assumption that the different alloy in Lapua requires different treatment. Started using the "dull red" standard and seating effort is now as expected. And it shoots.

Thanks for taking the time to post, riflewoman. Your comments have emboldened me and will likely help me keep from second-guessing myself.

 

[geraldgee]

If the brass is at dull red glow, you’re hotter than 750. As I have mentioned many times in many threads about annealing, if you’re stopping at 750F, you’re wasting your time and are NOT annealing your brass. It needs to be hotter than that.

It seems like a subjective science at this point but I know it can't be. Can you definitively tell me what Tempilaq

should be used annealing? Any direction you can provide is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Gerald​

 

[riflewoman]

It seems like a subjective science at this point but I know it can't be. Can you definitively tell me what Tempilaq

should be used annealing? Any direction you can provide is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Gerald​

Gerald, I wish I could. The issue is I don’t know how much cold work is in your brass it’s starting from. All is not lost however. At hobby shops they sell brass tubing from K&S metals. This is normally “1/2 hard” brass tube. Get a piece of this in an appropriate wall thickness and outside diameter. Something like 1/4” OD x .014 wall. Cut a small piece of it about 3/8 inches long. With a micrometer or your calipers measure the OD. Then place it in a small bench vise with smooth jaws as to squeeze it shut. Place a shank of a No. 7 or 13/64 drill in the short tube section and squeeze it shut until the drill grabs but no further. (You want about 20 to 30 thousandths difference between the ID and the drill). Measure the difference between the oval and the previous measurement when round. Then heat another section to where the brass just begins to glow in a room with only the torch as the light then remove from the flame. Repeat the squeeze process. You’ll probably find that you get about.004 spring back on the annealed and .012 on the raw stock. If you don’t get any ovality on the un-annealed Decrease the drill diameter and try again, just use the same diameter. You can use this to refine your process with dwell time and where in the flame, etc. Just don’t get carried away. This isn’t rocket science.

You can then do a similar test on your brass to determine the hardness basis by the springback method and then annealing till you get about .003 or .004 annealed springback.

 

[Nature Boy]

I choose to use the 750 Tempilaq method. Having made that decision, I stick with.

All the second guessing can drive you nuts, particularly in a hobby that draws anal retentive types like shit draws flies (and I put myself squarely in that group)

 

[riflewoman]

I value many of your tips and advice. Thank you for sharing your experience.
What, in your opinion, is the correct temp to heat the neck/shoulder section to for proper Annealing?

See my response to Gerald. But it’s at least 1050 or so. 1050 is about a first red glow when you’re working in a dark room using the torch flame as your light source. But this is a very dependent process. Where you start from regarding the amount of cold work, how hot you get it, time at temperature etc.

 

[trapperdan]

Do any of you go by color or is that just a myth?

 

[muleman69]

See my response to Gerald. But it’s at least 1050 or so. 1050 is about a first red glow when you’re working in a dark room using the torch flame as your light source. But this is a very dependent process. Where you start from regarding the amount of cold work, how hot you get it, time at temperature etc.

So you are saying 1050 is somewhere in the ball park for a starting point? So if I'm getting this right I need to see the first glow of any particular piece of brass no matter the manufacturer and I will be okay? Hopefully this makes since

 

[riflewoman]

Yes. A dull red is about 1000 or so and this agrees with the info from the AMP people. They get their temps up to just over 1000. Whether you dunk it in water or not depends on your preference and also in the size of the case itself. 308 maybe not, 17 Ackley Hornet definitely. Oh, and you can over do this but there’s a good amount of working space in this process.

 

[boltfluter]

Seems like the salt bath method of annealing would be a no brainier, as far as controlling the temp and getting consistent results. Much more economical as well. Just thinking out loud. As I do not anneal at the moment.

Paul

 

[Ccrider]

If the brass is at dull red glow, you’re hotter than 750. As I have mentioned many times in many threads about annealing, if you’re stopping at 750F, you’re wasting your time and are NOT annealing your brass. It needs to be hotter than that.

Really had to think about this. I have been using 750 templaq and can “see” a difference- lower Es after “annealing.”

I put the templaq in the neck and direct the flame to the shoulder. Are you saying that what I am seeing is the placebo affect?

 

[riflewoman]

Really had to think about this. I have been using 750 templaq and can “see” a difference- lower Es after “annealing.”

I put the templaq in the neck and direct the flame to the shoulder. Are you saying that what I am seeing is the placebo affect?

You’re probably just “stress relieving”. We did it with cold worked alloys to prevent un-expected premature cracking in a fatigue loaded structure. The “cold work” and it’s benefits are retained but the internal stresses are reduced. If your happy with the results you get, keep going. But it isn’t annealing in the metallurgical sense which requires recrystallization for it to be annealing.

 

[geraldgee]

Gerald, I wish I could. The issue is I don’t know how much cold work is in your brass it’s starting from. All is not lost however. At hobby shops they sell brass tubing from K&S metals. This is normally “1/2 hard” brass tube. Get a piece of this in an appropriate wall thickness and outside diameter. Something like 1/4” OD x .014 wall. Cut a small piece of it about 3/8 inches long. With a micrometer or your calipers measure the OD. Then place it in a small bench vise with smooth jaws as to squeeze it shut. Place a shank of a No. 7 or 13/64 drill in the short tube section and squeeze it shut until the drill grabs but no further. (You want about 20 to 30 thousandths difference between the ID and the drill). Measure the difference between the oval and the previous measurement when round. Then heat another section to where the brass just begins to glow in a room with only the torch as the light then remove from the flame. Repeat the squeeze process. You’ll probably find that you get about.004 spring back on the annealed and .012 on the raw stock. If you don’t get any ovality on the un-annealed Decrease the drill diameter and try again, just use the same diameter. You can use this to refine your process with dwell time and where in the flame, etc. Just don’t get carried away. This isn’t rocket science.

You can then do a similar test on your brass to determine the hardness basis by the springback method and then annealing till you get about .003 or .004 annealed springback.

Riflewoman

I appreciate the detailed instructions. They make perfect sense to me now and also provide a means of measuring effectiveness (your example of spring back). Thank you for your help!

 

[Gb300wm]

This may be what you guys/gals are looking for:

 

[BenPerfected]

It is had to beat the value of DJ’s Brass Service. If you are shooting a lot, it is a treat to have your brass managed by a pro. There are so many steps to precision reloading that for me the lubing, full length resizing & decapping in one stroke makes it a joy. Next, I throw the brass in a wet tumbler, dry and ship it to DJ to anneal. My annealing is done after the 3rd firing.
Ben

 

[R.Morehouse]

I am never really in a rush. The AMP is an easy no brainer......When the little light goes off it's time to remove it & put another one in. I do it every time......Not a burden at all. I have some nice equip. to make the reloading process both better and easier/enjoyable....I think the AMP just may be at the top of the list.

Regards
Rick

 

[Richard Coody]

if you want to anneal and be consistent about it the AMP is the way to go.

i used geraud for years with good results but ways wondered...

set it up with 750 inside the neck and used that time but i always wondered...

with the amp with aztec there is no wondering. you have tested that brass lot and if you turn necks that neck thickness. a wonderful machine.

 

[Murray Brook]

Seems like the salt bath method of annealing would be a no brainier, as far as controlling the temp and getting consistent results. Much more economical as well. Just thinking out loud. As I do not anneal at the moment.

Paul

Check the video
http://ballisticrecreations.ca/

 

[MagnumManiac]

There are 2 distinct inputs for annealing to take place: heat AND time.
If you use salt, lead or induction where the temp is pretty constant, then the only factor for correct annealing is time.
I have personally annealed brass and copper windings for industry where a dull red made them super soft for winding around mandrels.

I have never heated my brass cases to any type of dull red or any red, using a Rockwell hardness tester, I KNOW my method works to reduce the hardness to either factory spec or slightly less.

I understand stress relieving is different to annealing in the true scheme of things, but if what most do is in fact only stress relieving.......it must be working for the majority of those doing it.

Cheers.

 

[Papa Charlie]

I have been working with metals for most of my life. I trust my eyes and the color of the metal. I bring it up to a dull to medium red which should be about 800-1000 degrees. I anneal every firing to ensure consistent neck tension and to relieve stress in the metal. I have gotten up to 22 firings out of my Lapua .308 Win brass so far and still counting.
I am not concerned with excessive heat as I would have to get it much hotter to start bringing out the zinc in the metal.
As far as I am concerned, if you don't get the red then you aren't doing anything but warming up the metal.
Just my $0.0002 worth.