Annealing question

[Kevin1990]

I’ve been reading a lot on annealing. Whether it effects accuracy or not, methods etc.

I’ve also read a few times on here, of people saying improperly annealing brass is one of the worst things you can do.

I’m not a metallurgist, so forgive me, but how do you improperly anneal brass? I ask because I’m using a flame annealer (Ugly annealer) , and I use templaq 750 on the inside of the necks, and as soon as I see a color change I remove it, and that’s my setting.

But if one were using a flame annealer without some type of regulator, how would you get the same anneal each and every time, especially if the flame is also not in the exact spot each annealing. Does annealing have to be that precise, or does a certain temp have to be obtained and you’re good?

Thanks fellas

 

[NZ_Fclass]

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[Straightshooter1]

I’ve been reading a lot on annealing. Whether it effects accuracy or not, methods etc.

I’ve also read a few times on here, of people saying improperly annealing brass is one of the worst things you can do.

I’m not a metallurgist, so forgive me, but how do you improperly anneal brass? I ask because I’m using a flame annealer (Ugly annealer) , and I use templaq 750 on the inside of the necks, and as soon as I see a color change I remove it, and that’s my setting.

But if one were using a flame annealer without some type of regulator, how would you get the same anneal each and every time, especially if the flame is also not in the exact spot each annealing. Does annealing have to be that precise, or does a certain temp have to be obtained and you’re good?

Thanks fellas

Though I'm not a metallurgist either, many years ago I trained and started working with various aircraft alloy metals to form them to various shapes and got to acquire a little knowledge about the annealing effects on various sheet metals. Yes, brass can be "improperly" annealed, depending on what one is trying to achieve. When it comes to our brass cases, "improper" can mean that they've not been "annealed" enough or they've been overly "annealed" (too soft). Basically, what we're trying to do is soften the brass just enough, not too much, to restore the crystallization to keep the brass in such a state that it will not crack as it's worked by its movement from expansion in the chamber to being squeezed by the sizing die then expanded again by an expander ball or mandrel.

How much of the recrystallization and grain growth occurs in the annealing process is dependent on temperature and time. You can "properly" anneal your brass at a low temperature over a long period of time, or over a very short period of time with very high heat. The issue with our brass is you don't want the annealing to travel down the case body and to the web, so higher heat for the neck and shoulder area is needed so there's not enough time for the annealing to work its way down the body.

It's nice to be precise with how perfect you're getting to the ideal softness for the neck and shoulder, but what's most important is consistency. You don't even have to anneal to get that consistency, but there's a lot of things involved with that and the annealing process makes things simpler, IMHO. For our needs in sizing brass, a little "over annealing" is better than "under annealing" to extend the life of one's brass. So, if you happen to go over that 750°F a little, you're going to be just fine and even better if you do it with consistently.

I use the "glow method" to determine how hot I'm getting the necks and shoulders. In a darkened room, I leave the brass in my flame annealer (I use the Annealeez machine, much like the Ugly) until I see a faint glow begin and that's when the case is dropped out of the flame. When it glows like that, it is hotter than 750°F and more like at 1,000°F, but then the case isn't in the flame for very long (like 4-5 seconds for my .308 cases, using a hot swirl torch head).

I hope this helps answer your questions. Just . . . be consistent with your annealing process and you should do fine.

 

[Kevin1990]

Though I'm not a metallurgist either, but many years ago I trained and started working with with various aircraft alloy metals to form them to various shapes and got to acquire a little knowledge about the annealing effects on various sheet metals. Yes, brass can be "improperly" annealed, depending on what one is trying to achieve. When it comes to our brass cases, "improper" can mean that they've not been "annealed" enough or they've been overly "annealed" (too soft). Basically, what we're trying to do is soften the brass just enough, not too much, to restore the crystallization to keep the brass in such a state that it will not crack as it's worked by its movement from expansion in the chamber to being squeezed by the sizing die then expanded again by an expander ball or mandrel.

How much of the recrystallization and grain growth occurs in the annealing process is dependent on temperature and time. You can "properly" anneal your brass at a low temperature over a long period of time, or over a very short period of time with very high heat. The issue with our brass is you don't want the annealing to travel down the case body and to the web, so higher heat for the neck and shoulder area is needed so there's not enough time for the annealing to work its way down the body.

It's nice to be precise with how perfect your are getting to the ideal softness for the neck and shoulder, but what's most important is consistency. You don't even have to anneal to get that consistency, but there's a lot of thing involved with that and the annealing process makes things simpler, IMHO. For our needs in sizing brass, a little "over annealing" is better than "under annealing" to extend the life of one's brass. So, if you happen to go over that 750°F a little, you're going to be just fine and even better if you do it consistently.

I use the "glow method" to determine how hot I'm getting the necks and shoulders. In a darkened room, I leave the brass in my flame annealer (I use the Annealeez machine, much like the Ugly) until I see a faint glow begin and that's when the case is dropped out of the flame. When it glows like that, it is hotter than 750°F and more like at 1,000°F, but then case isn't in the flame for very long (like 4-5 seconds for my .308 cases, using a hot swirl torch head).

I hope this helps answer your questions. Just . . . be consistent with your annealing process and you should do fine.

All good info. Thanks man! I’ve been using a pencil torch head, and I aim it right at the shoulder junction and for me to get a glow on the neck was taking quite awhile. I think I’ll try a the swirl torch head and try to get everything as consistent as possible.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Annealing is just heating brass until the dislocations are normalized. Under heating leaves the grain structure at risk of cracking and has too much springback against the sizing die causing sizing variation and neck tension variation.

Too much annealing is dead soft or even deformed. Dead soft needs work hardening to have good neck tension.

Then there is a wide zone of “right”. Better that right is same for every case and in this zone.

I, like many, find “right” in a dark room where my test case just starts to glow. Then I speed it up until it just does not glow. This is where the shoulder is normalized enough not to spring back, but neck has enough elasticity to hold the bullet well.

AMP shares this in their technical data, but I feel they make it sound like an impossibly precise process that requires all their electronic controls. It does not. Maybe one of the “benchrest” experts on here can explain this from their experience. A while ago, many great shooters annealed spinning in a socket until first glow for example!

 

[Chris Edmondson]

AMP shares this in their technical data, but I feel they make it sound like an impossibly precise process that requires all their electronic controls. It does not.

While I agree there's more than one way to skin a cat, some ways are more consistent than others. By way of analogy, my accomplished domestic chef has used every imaginable form of cooking heat out there. The old coil style electric, the newer coil-under-glass, propane, natural gas, and now induction. None of the other methods even come close to the precision and repeatability offered by the induction cooktop. Certainly, experienced professional chefs learn how to stabilize cast iron cookware to temperature over gas and they'd never consider using anything else to prepare meals with, but it requires lots of time and dedication to master the process.

The only reason I switched to the AMP for annealing is because I felt operating propane torches indoors presented a safety risk which I grew increasingly concerned about. That said, the Bench Source flame thrower turned out good work, but that result came with a more steep learning curve and required much more of my attention to the process than the AMP does, with an elevated safety risk in my situation.

I agree no one needs an AMP to achieve acceptable annealing results, with the Aztec mode now for analyzing your own brass, it's remains state-of-the art, priced accordingly.

 

[nksmfamjp]

The only reason I switched to the AMP for annealing is because I felt operating propane torches indoors presented a safety risk which I grew increasingly concerned about. That said, the Bench Source flame thrower turned out good work, but that result came with a more steep learning curve and required much more of my attention to the process than the AMP does, with an elevated safety risk in my situation.

Good points.

 

[MikeRu]

I’ve had great results heating as per Straightshooter1 above — about 6-8 sec until just barely see faint red glow in darkened room, and using Anneal-rite (cartridge anneal.com) equipment and propane torches, very inexpensive. Includes an aluminum block (pic) that protects the case body. Install a carbon monoxide detector and keep a fire extinguisher handy—good ideas in any living space, even if you don’t reload , store powder etc. And put your cleaning solvents and rags away—another good idea regardless. Yesterday my seating pressures were 30 lb (range 29-31) for 6X fired 300 SAUM, using K&M std force pack. Consistent enough—IMO.

 

[SteveUrban]

I got a AGS and I am very happy with it.

 

[Webster]

I’ve been reading a lot on annealing. Whether it effects accuracy or not, methods etc.

I’ve also read a few times on here, of people saying improperly annealing brass is one of the worst things you can do.

I’m not a metallurgist, so forgive me, but how do you improperly anneal brass? I ask because I’m using a flame annealer (Ugly annealer) , and I use templaq 750 on the inside of the necks, and as soon as I see a color change I remove it, and that’s my setting.

But if one were using a flame annealer without some type of regulator, how would you get the same anneal each and every time, especially if the flame is also not in the exact spot each annealing. Does annealing have to be that precise, or does a certain temp have to be obtained and you’re good?

Thanks fellas

If your trying to anneal with a torch for somewhere around 6-9 seconds there is so little annealng taking place at that temp and time that little if if any annealing takes place. You are stress relieving. I have all the numbers but no-one believes them so I won't post them again. Let the flames begin. Never got a real answer as to who came up with 750F is a good temp to shoot for. 750F for 10 seconds there should be zero annealing. I anneal for 8-9 seconds with a torch. The necks don't seem to loose any hardness. It prevents neck splitting. I have a 6BR for GH hunting and it shoots under .400" with good bullets. I push the hot tip of the flame against the neck so it wraps around the neck. The very hot tip of the flame is broken up and doesn't touch the neck. It's been a while but as I remember the necks had to be red for about 5 seconds before the necks were softened as detected by sqeezing the neck and seeing if I could make it slightly ovil.