You can always tell there's a product launch coming when the subject of (XXXXX) starts being floated on these forums with increasing frequency. Finally, we have an annealing machine which costs $1000.00. Hallelujah!
Annealing Made Perfect
- Thread starter Sheldon N
- Start date
Is it just me or does it seems like gun-related manufacture can sell boat loads of stuff based simply on hype and without one single strand of evidence to prove that they have a significantly better product and people is willing to throw money at them and buy into it.
Don’t get me wrong, I do agree that this machine we are talking about have potentials but potentials is all it has without some evidence to prove otherwise.
Please also tell me where it makes sense for the customer to fork over big money, take the chance, and be the tester to show a product actually have or does not have merit? Sorry but I am confused...
Don’t get me wrong, I do agree that this machine we are talking about have potentials but potentials is all it has without some evidence to prove otherwise.
Please also tell me where it makes sense for the customer to fork over big money, take the chance, and be the tester to show a product actually have or does not have merit? Sorry but I am confused...
dickn52
Banned
Price doesn't matter. He has to include the materials, the assembly (labor) and his R&D expenses. It's newer technology and will cost more for awhile. Building better mousetraps is ok as well, it means people are still looking for something easier and better. I predict that many annealing machines will start popping up in the future using induction coils. As they come into the market, the price will drop.
Is it just me or does it seems like gun-related manufacture can sell boat loads of stuff based simply on hype and without one single strand of evidence to prove that they have a significantly better product and people is willing to throw money at them and buy into it.
Don’t get me wrong, I do agree that this machine we are talking about have potentials but potentials is all it has without some evidence to prove otherwise.
Please also tell me where it makes sense for the customer to fork over big money, take the chance, and be the tester to show a product actually have or does not have merit? Sorry but I am confused...
No, you're not confused....... just being realistic. Yes, the machine is pretty sexy. I won't deny that.
However, it costs a fortune. Plus not only do you have to handle each piece of brass individually and carefully put each piece into a holder, I understand that the unit requires cooling after something like 50 or 75 pieces.
It sounds like it should be very consistent at first blush, but since it apparently heats up to unacceptable levels, I wonder if heat accumulation will actually make it less consistent than a carefully controlled torch system. I monitor my "Skip" auto feed machine as it runs and as the propane bottle cools off and the pressure goes down a bit, I tweak the valve as necessary to keep the point of the blue flame right at the case neck in attempt to keep the annealing temperature consistent. When I check the temperature of the first and last case in a batch of more than 100 pieces with Tamplaq, the indication is exactly the same; i.e. annealing time and temperature of my machine is consistent to a fraction of a second. It remains to be seen of spending $1000 will better my results.
Finally, someone will have to prove to me that a tiny improvement in annealing performance (if it exists at all) will translate into a measurable reduction in group size at the target, where it counts. I seriously doubt if such proof will be presented to the shooting community any time soon.
So, as I've said before, if it's WAY more expensive than my inexpensive-yet-precise machine and if it's much more tedious and time consuming to operate, you can count me out. I prefer to spend my extra money on cheap whiskey and trashy women.
Pretty much all good points.
I really want to emphasize that I am NOT bashing the machine but again what I would like the manufacture to do is to show us more of the results that they have from their testing. I know they have more. Especially useful would be side-by-side comparison with something like a BenchSource or Giraud.
As we used to say “show us the beef”.
I really want to emphasize that I am NOT bashing the machine but again what I would like the manufacture to do is to show us more of the results that they have from their testing. I know they have more. Especially useful would be side-by-side comparison with something like a BenchSource or Giraud.
As we used to say “show us the beef”.
Here is the contact information for Ferrari
Ferrari SpA, headquarters and factory:
Via Abetone Inferiore n. 4,
I-41053 Maranello (MO)
Phone: +39 0536 949111
Give them a call and ask them if they wouldn't mind picking up a Mclaren P1 and a Porshe 918 and running side by side comparisons with their LaFerrari just for you and publish the results and see what their answer is.. Better get comfortable as they will most likely be rolling on the floor laughing at you for weeks just like any other manufacturer of anything. And who could blame them.
I am sure that they would indeed be rolling on the floor laughing – absolutely no doubt. Frankly I too would be laughing in their shoes... 
This is because they got plenty of people like you who are so easily impressed with jargon and images of testing machinery and promise that it will give you “new level of precision” WITHOUT giving ANY, i.e. ZERO supporting data. They actually tell you and show you they do the studies looking at annealing consistency for different multiples of firing. If the data is so good, don’t you think it would be reasonable to show us the data?
As for the Mclaren P1 and Porsche 918, you are absolutely right, the car companies will not give you a side-by-side test but guess what, take one minute to go to McLaren’s or Porsche’s literature and you will find that they don’t just tell you them make a fast car that gives you great 0-60 runs, ability to get high G force turns, they give you ACTUAL DATA of these statistics and guess what they are at least in the US held legally to these numbers as some car manufacturer like VW have found out.
So yea, some of us are not suckers, but as they say “there is a sucker born every minute”.
This is because they got plenty of people like you who are so easily impressed with jargon and images of testing machinery and promise that it will give you “new level of precision” WITHOUT giving ANY, i.e. ZERO supporting data. They actually tell you and show you they do the studies looking at annealing consistency for different multiples of firing. If the data is so good, don’t you think it would be reasonable to show us the data?
As for the Mclaren P1 and Porsche 918, you are absolutely right, the car companies will not give you a side-by-side test but guess what, take one minute to go to McLaren’s or Porsche’s literature and you will find that they don’t just tell you them make a fast car that gives you great 0-60 runs, ability to get high G force turns, they give you ACTUAL DATA of these statistics and guess what they are at least in the US held legally to these numbers as some car manufacturer like VW have found out.
So yea, some of us are not suckers, but as they say “there is a sucker born every minute”.
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That is a GOOD Question. I use the bench source and record my setting I seem to be able to produce consistent results.I always reset up and run a few test cases with templaque inside the neck and outside of the case. What I have found or it would seem to me it depends on how work hardened the brass is as to how much heat vs time they need to be annealed. cases that are HARD seem to need a little more heat or time to be annealed. I have done a maintenance anneal (I call it) where I anneal every firing and it seems to me they do not need as much heat or time. How I tell they are annealed is there is little spring back.The case after sized stay the sized size and do not grow or spring back in the neck. I notice more neck tension more bullet grip I can use a .001 larger neck bushing. I do see more consistent Velocity and better groups at 200 yards. I don't know if anyone else has seen what I described. To me annealing causes problems if you do not do it every fireing. Like a harder piece of brass was used to set up your shoulder bump, a bushing was used to set neck tension. A annealed case could have way more neck tension and the shoulder could be bumped too far and the rifle not shoot well...Anyone ever have this problem?
Would using a pressure regulator for the gas supply alleviate this concern? I use an 11 lb marine tank from my boat, set pressure at 85 lbs, and all seems pretty consistent, using Tempilaq as a gage. This is not super fast, but that is not a concern for me. I have no equipment to test actual hardness with, and am only going by my targets and seating force.
I believe it would help and using a bigger tank would also help. Most guys use the little bottles and they vary from full to getting empty. Matt
dmoran
Donovan Moran
Tom -
Been surfing the internet fairly substantially yesterday and again today for information, data, and results just as your asking for. Except for Amps website, I have found very little that applies to cartridge brass. No other annealer mfg that I've found/surfed has much at all in terms of hardness reports or case study.
Donovan
Been surfing the internet fairly substantially yesterday and again today for information, data, and results just as your asking for. Except for Amps website, I have found very little that applies to cartridge brass. No other annealer mfg that I've found/surfed has much at all in terms of hardness reports or case study.
Donovan
normmatzen
Banned
With all the various chatter about types of annealing equipment (I happily use an Annie) My friend in Australia sent me this masters thesis paper on one aspect of gas annealing. It is COMPLETELY documented with lab testing.If you are really interested in how well your drill motor and propane torch does, contact me through PM ( The file is too large to attach here).
Incidentally, the subject used in this thesis is the 2012 British champion F Class shooter. His results and re-loading/ annealing regimen is used.
It will make you appreciate the A.M.P.
Incidentally, the subject used in this thesis is the 2012 British champion F Class shooter. His results and re-loading/ annealing regimen is used.
It will make you appreciate the A.M.P.
I think the machine looks great . I would love to try one but at a thousand bucks and only a one year warranty ( I know all to well how computer and electrical part fail). I will keep shooting what I have and keep with the art of annealing. Orders are backed till APR now so I will give it a few years and see how you guys fair with them before I spend that kind of money. I thought I was nuts when I bought the Bench Source.
This seems to be a bit of ass covering by manyufacturers I think and depends on the ambient temperature. I have had mine doing over 100 magnum cartridges in a row without any overheating issues at all. The manufacturers commented that their recommendations are pretty conservative.
An easy test is with the telltale annealing fluids, in the same way the gas systems are usually "calibrated". My initial testing shows the machine to be pretty bang on so far (but admittedly it is only a week old and done a few hundred rounds).
What "annealing fluids" are you talking about? Tempilaq? That just indicates that it might have reached a certain temperature if you didn't hit it with the torch flame. It doesn't necessarily tell you anything about the annealed state of the metal. That would only be possible with either a microhardness tester or possibly a microscope and stain if you have the knowledge to read the grain structure. Another possibility would be to measure the yield strength by deforming the neck. Annealed brass yield strength is in the range of 19,000 psi where full hard is around 65,000 psi. To get it right it would need to be correlated to a microhardness test since the different neck diameters would affect the force required to deform the neck to a certain degree.
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