Annealing Conundrum

[Mulligan]

Let me first explain my situation; I have two dasher barrels each with a different base to shoulder measurement. The used barrel has a long enough chamber that brass fired in it will not fit (bolt will not close) in the new barrel. I only have one set of dies so I have been readjusting the die a bit. The new barrel is new, as in I have not fired it yet. However I adjusted the sizing die to push the shoulder back a bit on a piece of brass fired in the old barrel to see what the difference really was (I was hoping to use the old barrel for fireforming when it where's out....oh well) it looks like 5-6 thou.

Now back to the issue at hand, I annealed a handful of clean, sized and deprimed brass from my old barrel and measured the brass for length, base to shoulder, neck diameter, and concentricity. I then resized the brass with the newly adjusted FL bushing die.
Concentricity was reduced from .001 to .0005 (1/2 thou reduction) neck diameter reduced from .2665 to .2655 (.266 bushing) (1 thou reduction) base to shoulder length reduced a lot......007 reduction!!!
So I remeasured my sized 4 times fired brass and it was where I need it to be. I pulled the bolt from my dasher, removed the firing pin and closed the bolt on a sized 4 times fired piece of brass and confirmed I could just feel the bolt close on the brass. With the sized annealed brass in the chamber the bolt closes like there is nothing there......just what I would expect.

When I adjusted the die for the 4 times fired brass to fit in my old barrel I assume there was so much "spring-back" that when the annealed brass was sized in the same die it pushed the shoulder back the .007, is this on track with what others have seen???

By the way this came about after reading the recent article about loading match grade ammo on a Dillon press with a fancy powder scale thingy. In that article the auther states he has zero runout on his brass.....so I started measuring....and annealing.

CW

 

[LHSmith]

My opinion based on what I experienced in 15 yrs of SR BR.........ALWAYS dedicate new brass to a new barrel and NEVER interchange brass from other barrels NO MATTER how exact the chambers appear to be......which in your case they are far from being close. Even the best smith using the best equipped lathe and tooling and the same exact reamer cannot always guarantee a true matching chamber since barrel steels may cut differently from lot to lot, maker to maker.
In the grand scheme of things- brass is cheap as compared to your total investment in the game and assuming you want to win.

 

[jimcasey01]

I believe that Mr. Smith has nailed it. I personally have three barrels, 2 cut with the same reamer I believe. All have their own brass that is used only in that barrel.

 

[Mulligan]

My opinion based on what I experienced in 15 yrs of SR BR.........ALWAYS dedicate new brass to a new barrel and NEVER interchange brass from other barrels NO MATTER how exact the chambers appear to be......which in your case they are far from being close. Even the best smith using the best equipped lathe and tooling and the same exact reamer cannot always guarantee a true matching chamber since barrel steels may cut differently from lot to lot, maker to maker.
In the grand scheme of things- brass is cheap as compared to your total investment in the game and assuming you want to win.

Yes, after realizing the chambers are different I have ordered, received and prepped 300 pcs of new Lapua brass.

I obviously didn't articulate the conundrum very well at all. My bad!

When I adjusted my die to resize the 4 times fired brass non-annealed brass and then resized a piece of 4times fired annealed brass the shoulder was pushed back .007 more with the annealed vs non-annealed.
Have others seen this?
Is this why many of the members on this forum anneal each time they load?
CW

 

[dantiff2]

Yes, after realizing the chambers are different I have ordered, received and prepped 300 pcs of new Lapua brass.

I obviously didn't articulate the conundrum very well at all. My bad!

When I adjusted my die to resize the 4 times fired brass non-annealed brass and then resized a piece of 4times fired annealed brass the shoulder was pushed back .007 more with the annealed vs non-annealed.
Have others seen this?
Is this why many of the members on this forum anneal each time they load?
CW

Are you using an expander ball with the die? To answer you last question. Yes, When comparing brass with a few firings to some with only one firing you will see a difference in shoulder bump from springback. For me it wasn't as extreme but I have seen as much as .003". Also try a short dwell time in the die if you aren't already. Personally, annealing after every firing has given me the results I wanted.

Dan

 

[Mulligan]

Are you using an expander ball with the die? To answer you last question. Yes, When comparing brass with a few firings to some with only one firing you will see a difference in shoulder bump from springback. For me it wasn't as extreme but I have seen as much as .003". Also try a short dwell time in the die if you aren't already. Personally, annealing after every firing has given me the results I wanted.

Dan

Yes the die is a Whidden and it has a .240 expander in it.....

 

[spclark]

I started annealing after finding inconsistent shoulder bump on cases multi-times fired but un-annealed.

Drove me to distraction until reading about brass behavior as cases get hardened from repeated firing + sizing operations and how annealing (maybe more appropriate term is 'stress-relieving') can help.

Not seen the 0.007" kind of dimensional change you're getting but YES I guess with dies that permit that kind of range adjustment it's possible. More likely too with annealed cases than not.

 

[itchyTF]

Not to hijack the thread, but is the implication that when a barrel wears out and it's replaced, the old brass goes in the dumpster?

 

[spclark]

...is the implication that when a barrel wears out and it's replaced, the old brass goes in the dumpster?

I shouldn't think so, no.

I have three or four 308 barrels each chambered with one or another reamer design (close but not identical) & they all shoot a load I've developed just fine from 600 on out to 1,000 yards.

Of course others' experiences, and choice of shooting disciplines, may demand a more rigorous approach... not to mention deeper pockets.

 

[fguffey]

When I adjusted the die for the 4 times fired brass to fit in my old barrel I assume there was so much "spring-back" that when the annealed brass was sized in the same die it pushed the shoulder back the .007, is this on track with what others have seen???

When I adjusted the die for the 4 times fired brass to fit in my old barrel I assume there was so much "spring-back" that when the annealed brass was sized in the same die it pushed the shoulder back the .007, is this on track with what others have seen???

I hear that all the time, a reloaders claims he neck sizes the case 4 times and then full length sizes the case and starts over and I always wonder how that is possible. First; the case has been fired 5 times, how is it possible to start over.

And then there is that ‘spring back thing’; when I fire my cases they taken on a behavior I call ‘resistance to sizing’. To size the case my press must have more ability to overcome the cases ability to resistance sizing. For me; that is not a problem, when I want to know if my press has the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing I measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder.

I do not have any excuses for my die, shell holder and press to fail me when sizing a case.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Annealing Conundrum; and then there is the conundrum of annealing. I do not have that problem, many years ago I decided there were a few rules and factors that govern annealing. After reading about annealing I picked a few rules and decided on a few factors.


Today? I can not get a word in about annealing.


F. Guffey

 

[Mulligan]

I hear that all the time, a reloaders claims he neck sizes the case 4 times and then full length sizes the case and starts over and I always wonder how that is possible. First; the case has been fired 5 times, how is it possible to start over.

And then there is that ‘spring back thing’; when I fire my cases they taken on a behavior I call ‘resistance to sizing’. To size the case my press must have more ability to overcome the cases ability to resistance sizing. For me; that is not a problem, when I want to know if my press has the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing I measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder.

I do not have any excuses for my die, shell holder and press to fail me when sizing a case.

F. Guffey

No neck sizing here!

 

[Mulligan]

Annealing Conundrum; and then there is the conundrum of annealing. I do not have that problem, many years ago I decided there were a few rules and factors that govern annealing. After reading about annealing I picked a few rules and decided on a few factors.


Today? I can not get a word in about annealing.


F. Guffey

How is this helpful?

 

[fguffey]

How is this helpful?

Annealing Conundrum; and then there is the conundrum of annealing.

many years ago I decided there were a few rules and factors that govern annealing.

I can only guess if you do not have rules and factors you are left with no contribution.


F. Guffey

 

[Mulligan]

I can only guess if you do not have rules and factors you are left with no contribution.


F. Guffey

I simply asked a question.
The question is, "are other hand loaders seeing that their dies need adjusted between fire-hardened (4xfired) brass and the same bunch of brass that has been annealed to get the same base to shoulder length?"

OK, I didn't spell it out like that in the above post....maybe that caused some confusion. I guess that's one reason why I am not a professional writer.
Look I am not trying to be objectionable here, I really would like to hear from the folks that know.
CW

 

[joshb]

YES.

 

[JFrank]

Bump for a good read.

priceless…

 

[divingin]

Bump for a good read.

Well, it was Guffey. Need I say more? At least he didn't take off on a tangent about how he measures chamber length with a whole crapload of tools that he never specifies.

 

[fatelvis]

To the OP, yes it is almost expected to have to readjust your sizing die (back out slightly) after annealing, in order to hit the same target measurement as once previous, on multi-fired brass. This is the main reason why people anneal after every firing. For consistency.

 

[edwardware]

I simply asked a question.
The question is, "are other hand loaders seeing that their dies need adjusted. . .

I thought your question was clear.

Yes, annealing reduces elasticity (reduces the spring back after sizing) so an annealed case will be shorter for the same die setting than an unannealed case. All is as usual here.