Annealed Lapua brass..GULP

[6BRinNZ]

Hi Guys,

Finding my way with caution on this one!

I have just annealed my Lapua cases using the Hornady templaq solution. When you have annealed using what ever process do you find the following;

1./ The brass is silky smooth to resize (I resized after annealing) the feel is softer than brand new brass. Note I used a very wide mark of templaq and only the top portion of this changed colour...the cases were then quenched.

2./ Using my old sizing settings the cases were hard to chamber, I had to go up one size in the redding case holder...I use the redding instant indicator to measure bump.

I tentatively loaded and fired a sample of these cases and all was ok....I guess if I measure at the base and check that nothing has expanded over .001" I should be good to go?

Any input welcome.

 

[watercam]

Funny that you should add your post at this time as I just had one regarding the very same brass/annealing kit. I sized after annealing as well and felt nothing out of the ordinary. I also used a wide band of Tempilaq (it will be a small dot next time) and stopped at the same moment. The responses to my thread were mixed - the Moderator even jumped in. Some were concerned that the Tempilaq supplied with the kit was too low a temperature to anneal properly. I'm calling Hornady tomorrow to make sure all is as it should be. If yours shoot OK with a normal load it seems you are good to go.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Yeah, I had a read of your post and was going to post my info above in it, but I chose to start a fresh as I have no doubt that the annealing has worked...I can state this two ways;

1./ feel of the resizing
2./ neck tension is consistent, prior to annealing some bullets I could push in by hand others I couldn't and I could tell at the time of seating.

So for me if I have done things correctly it is a cheap and simple solution....not saying its the best or the most consistent method, for my abilities it would have to be pretty good though.

I am nervous that I have over annealed...only kos I have read so much about over annealing though and the better solutions would possibly remove that worry...although if you get the timings wrong on the wheels maybe you can still over anneal?

Anyways I took the annealed cases and worked up a ladder from the very bottom load to the very top load in the ADI manual for 80 grainers (30.5 - 32.5) with 2208 and all is well so I am getting more comfortable, although I won't be happy until I have pulled the trigger on all of the cases LOL.

Thanks

 

[lpreddick]

is it annealed correctly? how many times did i ask myself? i took several unfired lapua cases in several calibers and looked closely(magnification) at the neck, shoulder and juncture of the greyish to normal brass colors on these cases. there is a transition zone that has blue and red at the grey-brass interface. i spun fired cases in my b&d drill slowly. polish the neck,shoulder area to a bright shine, then apply the flame and count...when the grey started, i would stop and look for the lapua change to appear. after a learning curve, i started to get the exact color changes noted on the lapua brass. several experienced reloaders could not tell the difference between my annealed brass and lapua's...neither could i if i tagged the lapua with a piece of paper inside the case. i see on this site that some "anneal after each firing" . my understanding is that annealing corrects microscopic changes in the structure of brass that occurs after "hardening". can this change occur after just one firing? i thought multiple firings would be needed to change the brass's microscopic structure.

if i can see you, i can touch you.BANG!

 

[RonAKA]

My thoughts are that annealed is annealed. Tempering is a term used in heat treating steel. Steel hardens when you quench it. One standard method of heat treating steel is OQT or oil quenched and tempered. After quenching the steel is too hard and brittle to use. So it is slowly heated up to a specific temperature to temper it. The higher the temperature used the softer and less strength it has.

However with brass you are not doing that. Brass does not harden by quenching, and when you take it up to 800F or higher it anneals. If you take it up to some lower temperature, then you do nothing or very little. As I say my thoughts are that you anneal or you don't. Tempering in brass or partial annealing is not controllable. I think the warnings about over annealing have to do with holding the brass at too high a temperature for too long so oxidation occurs.

 

[mkihne]

Just a few things from Ken Lights article in the article archives on this site. If you polish or shine up a few pieces of good(or culled)brass that you can use to tell results. The head and most of the body(short of the neck) should remain shinny. If it dulls, you may be approaching annealing temp(abt 480 degrees is where it starts, up to about 750-800 degrees). On shinny brass you should see the neck turn a gold color, not to be confused with a bright brass color. Once you see this, you will recognize it. If you take a case that has been properly annealed and grip the neck in your fingers and twist it you will feel some resistance(like that ivory soap squeaky clean feeling) which you shouldn't feel if you do the same to the body near the head. You will get some discoloration of the shoulder area(reddish orange to blue in some instances-for some reason my Lapua is more red orange than blue). You will not get a look like new military or Lapua brass after annealing-this comes a period of time after annealing, just like the tarnish on older brass. Quenching likely does nothing to enhance or detract from the annealing process.

Just remember time and heat are trade-offs. High heat-shorter exposure and visa-versa. Final product should have many of the characteristics above, if not all.

 

[jonbearman]

I have a benchsource and it is great.I can do about 100 cases after 15 minutes and call it a day. I was quenching but now I am going to not quench.It is a pain to dry them out. And you are right as the color seems to come in after the brass sits awhile.

 

[260Ravage]

Re: annealing... I may cause a side-step to this post with a question,but here goes. What dangers are there in over-annealing brass? (too hot/too long) I am referring to only the neck being over-annealed. I understand if the entire case gets annealed ,,that could be a problem. Would not the over-annealed neck/shoulder become work-hardened with firing and resizing to where it would once again become very usable? Does too much heat break down the metalurgy to a point where brass is not actually brass? As stated in an earlier post, I anneal by cautious sight and do not have problems. My accuracy is great and the cases seal very well. Therefore,I assume I am doin ok with it. Hopefully the Moderator can join in for his opinion. Don't hold back,,I'm thick skinned. thanks
Terry

 

[LHSmith]

Ravage- If you get too much heat into the neck, the brass becomes "dead-soft"...at which point the brass will not spring back at all, therefore you probably won't get sufficient tension to hold the bullet. This is where the vice-grip test comes into play. My experience has been that the overheated area of brass becomes black.
I anneal without an annealing machine,although I do rotate the case mechanically, with a simple torch, in daylight.....I simply apply enough heat to the neck to mimic the factory Lapua look (the blue ring), I don't use water, and I always polish the cases with steel wool prior to annealing to aid in the visual.

 

[mkihne]

Ravage, results of over annealing in the neck or below may depend on how well your case seals in your chamber. I have had neck separation on firing due to over turning a neck into the shoulder and didn't know it until case was extracted. If you get a lower separation from soft brass, you could get blowback if the case doesn't seal. As LH mentioned and in Ken Light's article in the archives, if you take a vise grip(not a pliers) and set it to just slightly bow the top of the neck when you close it, properly annealed or work hardened brass should spring back and not deform. If the slight bow in the case neck rim remains, the brass is too soft. I have heard people say that if these cases are run throught a couple of expander-neck resize cycles, that you might work the brass enough to be saved, but I can't recomend that because I would likely throw the case first, but in theory it does make sense. Most anneal in the dark and only to a faint red glow. If it gets orange, you blew it.
I don't go as far as LH to get a specific color on the neck because as I stated above, the color on Lapua or military brass is aquired over a period of weeks and not seconds after annealing. Look for a golden color on your neck and do the "squeak test" I mention above.

 

[260Ravage]

I anneal my cases exactly as LH. I place the case in my makeshift case holder and spin it with my cordless drill while heating the neck. I watch the neck/shoulder and when it turns bluish, I instantly remove the case from the heat. With-in seconds, they take on that beautiful lapua look. Why do i get that distinctive color right away?

 

[mkihne]

Don't know what to think, Ravage. I think with different systems, especially those that use a rotating tray, get different appearance. LH's and your way may be just fine. Torches(single or multiple) and time of exposure may vary. I check mine with Tempilaque(450 on the case body, 650 on the case neck and down the shoulder about 1/4 inch below the shoulder and 750 on the case neck only. My system(Ken Light's device) shows the 750 and 650 on the neck to change, but not the 450 on the body. This suggests that I am over 750 for the approximate 6 to 8 seconds in the two consecutive benzomatic torches that I use, which should produce annealing for that time-temperature combo. I have not tried a higher indicator and have wondered if 900 should be used to indicate over annealing. If I do the vise-grip test, I get spring back, which I should. Try the vise-grip thing and make sure you get spring back from a very subtle deformation of the rim of the case neck and let us know. If you do, you are likely good to go. You likely go longer than I do with those color changes. It would be interesting if you put a dab of an 800-900 on the neck and shoulder and see what you get. Welding supply stores are reported to carry this but I get mine from Midway. They make crayon-like sticks also, but I have a hard time getting these to stick to my cases.

I think that neck thickness has something to do with it also. when I run a 6br case through along with my neck turned 30br cases, there appears to be more heat effect on the 6br neck .

 

[RonAKA]

They make crayon-like sticks also, but I have a hard time getting these to stick to my cases.

Welders use them to ensure adequate pre and post heat. They don't put them on before heating, but just use them to check if the stick temperature has been reached. If too low the stick does not "stick" or melt. They are a hard to use for cases as the case cools so fast when you take the flame away. I think a slight red glow in a dark room is the easiest and most accurate way to gauge adequate temperature.

 

[260Ravage]

As mentioned in an earlier post, I initially started annealing with a temp crayon to the tune of 650degrees just below the shoulder. As time went on and with more experience I do not us the temp stick any longer. I periodically use the vise-grip test. I seem to pass that test ok.

 

[BoydAllen]

6BRinNZ,
It sounds like you have done a good job. There is a lot of misinformation around about annealing....but I think that you did what you set out to do. Now that you have, just keep your procedure standardized and carry on with the rest of your reloading program. Let us know more, when you have shot and reloaded the cases some more. You will probably have to do this periodically.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Thanks to all, it has been an interesting thread.

I fired another 10 rounds to get my zero yesterday and I am very pleased with the results, I have a 600yrd comp on this weekend so I will see how I go.

After reading this thread I have a sneaking suspicion (based on the resizing feel) that my necks are softer than needed, however at the range I am very happy with the results.

I do suspect that unless the structure of the metal is examined it is all subjective.

From here I will do as Boyd suggests and continue to reload and shoot, keeping a close eye on things.

Thanks.