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An open letter from Nightforce Optics regarding Competition model

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An open letter from Nightforce Optics in regards to recent concerns of the Nightforce 15-55x52 Competition riflescope:

Unfortunately, there have been some rumors on the reliability of the Competition model riflescope during the recent F-Class matches in Raton, NM. There were three Nightforce company employees on the ground in Raton; of which I was one of. During that time we observed a majority of shooters using Nightforce riflescopes on both F-T/R and F-Open rifles. Many indeed had the Competition model of one flavor or another. The US F-T/R and F-Open teams were both predominantly shooting with the Competition riflescope; along with other Benchrest and NXS models. In fact, the Nightforce Competition riflescope was used by the World Championship winning US F-T/R 8 man team for the International Team event.

For all of the rumors of scopes failing, we were unable to find anyone who had suffered an on the spot, verifiable failure of their Nightforce Competition riflescope where the riflescope was not operating as it should. After some detective work, we (Nightforce employees at the match) were able to track down a handful of shooters who suspected issues with their Nightforce Competition riflescope. However, the number was nowhere close to the 20 reported by others. With that, we have not yet received any of the riflescopes back from the match for a comprehensive evaluation... especially as some of these shooters wanted to verify their concerns in more controlled conditions.

We take every concern a customer has very seriously; but we also like to investigate and obtain all of the details possible to ensure we cover all bases and have accurate reports. One of the overwhelming concerns amongst all shooters, coaches and observers was the variation of conditions with regards to wind, heat and altitude in Raton, NM. While I did not participate in the match itself, I did partake in shooting on other facilities at the Whittington Center. We also found that the cross winds created some random elevation shifts of up to 2-3 minutes when shooting out to 1100 yards. In short, the wind and terrain created a very challenging shooting environment as anyone who was there can attest. In addition, there were many in attendance (to include previous national champions, national shooting teams and other industry shooters) who identified that they had issues with overpressure with their ammunition which caused vertical stringing on target. This can also appear as if the scope was not tracking reliably.

With all of that being said, it is possible for any mechanical device to fail. While we pursue perfection, we are not immune from occasional defects. Nightforce riflescope failures are extremely few and far between, but they do occur on a rare occasion. However, the statistics that we experience lead us to believe that the failure rates reported are questionable; especially as this was not the first major long range match that has had Nightforce Competition riflescopes present. Every Nightforce riflescope is methodically and thoroughly inspected before it is shipped out, to include adjustment tracking. During the product development process, we have extensive procedures and standards that must be achieved before a riflescope is deemed worthy of our name.
In summary, we are not making excuses for our riflescopes as we let the performance of our products speak for themselves. However, we do want to ensure all bases are covered and that if there truly is an issue; we are going to make it right. Please rest assured that the 15-55x Competition model does not suffer from any design flaws or other issues with the production of the riflescope.

The long range competitive shooting community has been extremely generous to Nightforce Optics and has helped us grow to where we are today; and we hope to be a part in the future. We are very grateful for all of the support and do our best to give back to the community when and where we can. Please do not be alarmed by the rumors, but instead ask for the specifics, the supporting information and then make an evaluation before jumping to conclusions. There are thousands and thousands of Nightforce riflescopes currently in service around the world with almost every kind of rifle shooter. Our products are built to be rugged, reliable and repeatable. This is something we live by at Nightforce and a standard we build our riflescopes to, so that you can count on a Nightforce anywhere, anytime.

For anyone that has had suspected issues or feels that their Nightforce is not living up to it's name, please contact myself or Customer Service and we will be happy to help.

Sincerely,

Sean Murphy
Project Manager
Marketing Department
Nightforce Optics, Inc.

Marketing@NightforceOptics.com
 
Thank you Sean.

On behalf of the shooting community and the Australian team I would like to thank you for your huge and continued support of our sport we love so much.

I would also like to thank Kelblys for the same reason.

For those individuals out there wishing to crucify either of these companies I ask for some calm.

It is very easy to understand how these events have come to pass and there is absolutely no need for a witch hunt in either direction. Lets just work through the issues slowly and calmly.

It is also equally understandable how some individuals have prepared long and hard for this event and have come across "unexplainable" shots in extreme conditions that may have cost them their shot at glory and hence emotions are running high. Perhaps some of these truly are scope failures (And I heard as many pointed at March as I did NF) but Raton is certainly not the place to make that confirmation. It is also understandable that if your world cup campaign did come crashing down due to equipment failure it would be distressing. This unfortunately is part of our sport and why we carry spares - But NF and March are as reliable as they come!

No one is to blame here.

To those with suspected problems, please try and confirm before raising alarm bells. You owe it to yourself as much as to the two fine companies above.
 
Sean,
I'm glad to see you and the staff have come on the forums and cleared up this matter. As I stated in the other forum I found Mr. Kelby comments were in very poor taste. I like Dave Berg have a very hard time believing him. Thank you for sending people to the nationals and worlds and sponsoring the U.S. F-class teams.

I have no doubt that if I ever have a problem with one of my four scopes you guys will take care of me and make it right. Thanks for a great product.

KT
 
Sean, I for one don't like the new scope for a few reasons, the first is the short and very critical eye relief. I compared the image size at 100 yds. to a NXS at 42 power and found the 15-55 was a great deal smaller set at 45, so raised the power till the image was the same and it ended up near 50. 5 min. per rev. is not enough for long range. Other than these things the scope shot very good but the short length of the eye relief at 1000yds. kills you all you do is hunt trying to see light,it a full view or gone,not like the NXS where you can see the target through free recoil. I did notice everybody compares them to the BR model with a short but not critical eye relief.
In Jim,s defense somebody was feeding him information to state these numbers and problems this is where this all started but your scope isn't squeaky clean ether you need to address some of these things. I see most shoot short range or hold the gun and don't compare them to a NXS with 4" of non critical eye relief.
It is good to see you read these threads and take this as constructive criticism,you have a good product and it just needs a little work to be perfect...... James O'Hara
 
I'm a "nobody" that profited from reading this. Only have one Nightforce BR and flat out "love" it.

Guess, when my lack of experience throws a shot high, I will not blame the scope. Never have, doubt I will. Most of the time I find the problem is looking back at me in the mirror.
 
I thought that I had a problem a couple months back with a new NF 12 x 42 BR. Sent it to Nightforce and received excellent service. Scope was disassembled, tested several times and they then called to tell me they really couldn't find anything wrong with it and sent it back to me quickly at no cost. I finally found small problems with the rifle that added up. Their quality of service alone will keep me coming back to their products.
 
I would have no problem putting my money down on one, I expect more detail when claims are made before I take them to heart! I expected it to be compared to what it's not, the following the previous Nightforce's had or have set the bar high. I would like to test one just to see if the pro's out way the cons!
 
After a lot of thought I would like to remove my apology to NF for bringing up the fact I had at least 15 people tell me at Raton that the new NF 15-55 was having problems. Now I apologized for bringing up on this board that NF had up to 20 failures and the scopes were removed and replaced. Now I ask you members of this board, really I as a reseller of March and many other products am not allowed or it is considered tacky to bring up one of Marches competitors problem. Really are we that Politically Correct today that I cannot do a Ford Chevy thing, or Apple vs. PC. Have we become this coddled in life that we must not bring up subjects because it may affect some business either positively or negatively. Does that mean NO ONE on this board can talk bad about any product because it might offend someone? Seriously we cannot talk about a competitor, should I not answer questions from potential customers as my answer may not be positive on someone’s product. Let alone have to worry about a lawsuit WOW REALLY lawsuit!

What good is this board if we cannot discuss these type of issues, I did not attack or slander anyone and now several people have come forward thinking there NF had a problem in Raton, just as I had been told and relayed to this message board.

You know it really sucks to own your own business in this current business atmosphere and now I got to worry about offending my competitor, because I relay information that was relayed to me about my competitor. So again I ask are we as a society that Politically Correct that we cannot discuss the good and bad we experience in life. Just a question I am asking. Boy I sure miss the ole days!

Jim
 
I love my NF's I have the BR, NXS and the Competition. as long as it's not a BIG gun with a lot of recoil I will take my Comp over ANYTHING I have ever shot. on 30 cal and bigger stuff I perfer my NXS. just my opinion.
 
James A. Kelbly said:
After a lot of thought I would like to remove my apology to NF for bringing up the fact I had at least 15 people tell me at Raton that the new NF 15-55 was having problems. Now I apologized for bringing up on this board that NF had up to 20 failures and the scopes were removed and replaced. Now I ask you members of this board, really I as a reseller of March and many other products am not allowed or it is considered tacky to bring up one of Marches competitors problem. Really are we that Politically Correct today that I cannot do a Ford Chevy thing, or Apple vs. PC. Have we become this coddled in life that we must not bring up subjects because it may affect some business either positively or negatively. Does that mean NO ONE on this board can talk bad about any product because it might offend someone? Seriously we cannot talk about a competitor, should I not answer questions from potential customers as my answer may not be positive on someone’s product. Let alone have to worry about a lawsuit WOW REALLY lawsuit!

What good is this board if we cannot discuss these type of issues, I did not attack or slander anyone and now several people have come forward thinking there NF had a problem in Raton, just as I had been told and relayed to this message board.

You know it really sucks to own your own business in this current business atmosphere and now I got to worry about offending my competitor, because I relay information that was relayed to me about my competitor. So again I ask are we as a society that Politically Correct that we cannot discuss the good and bad we experience in life. Just a question I am asking. Boy I sure miss the ole days!

Jim

In the end it won't matter, The products and service sell them selves!
 
Jim

I thank you for reporting the good and bad . Everone knows this is not a perfect world.

I'm sure if there is a problem NF will fix it.

Hal
 
James A. Kelbly said:
What good is this board if we cannot discuss these type of issues

to James Kelbly -

Bringing the subject up in your first ever discussion orientated post here, appeared to me what you think the board is good for.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

to Sean (and all NF staff) -

Thanks for the post here... and the assurance you care !.!

And a big Thanks to all NF for all that you do and have done for the competitive shooting sports, and all the sponsored scopes for prizes, at the ranges and matches I've attended.

My biggest Thank You to you all at NF, is for the quality and workmanship of the scopes you provide.
The mechanical repeatability, accurate calibrations, clarity, and structural rigidity put your scopes above most all others on the market.
They are the scope most all will compare others to.

I am a very satisfied NF customer (of 12 years of owning them)
Donovan Moran
 
So......

Were there any REAL problems with any of the scopes or just shooters unhappy with there shot placement due to an unseen condition?

Factual data?? We all know emotions run high and you have to filter everything...especially second or thirdhand info during these events.

Serious? Any real failures? I need a new scope for a new rifle soon. Happy with my NF and may be a repeat buyer soon..
 
Let me just state this, this was my second post ever to this board, not my first. Secondly, when I brought this subject up I knew it would actually be a more positive for NF, NF has been around for a long time and has some very loyal customers. And they should NF has some good products. Thirdly, when a competitor at Raton comes up and tells me his problems, how is this second or third hand? I wish you could see my PM 's I am getting, but I will keep these people out of the fray. You know I could have been like most of you on this board and not use my real name, but I beleive if you are going to say something, be a man and use your real name, using a name other than your own to me, makes your statements not believeable. I think all message boards should have to use your name PERIOD. A man or woman is allowed to have an opinion and I always stand behind mine good or bad in the long run. You have seen others post here with factual information that backs up what I said, which also is first hand, and you seem to just ignore it. I will never say that March scopes are perfect but from over 100 years of competitive shooting by my father, my employees and myself, I can say bar none March is the best. And before you jump on me for that statement, it is MY opinion and I am allowed to have it. Just as you are allowed to have your opinion. One thing is for sure this subject has brought up a good discussion for all to see and make their own mind up and that is what I like about boards like this. We can only learn more about our products and our game.

Again congrats to all the shooters using March Scopes and Kelbly products, I thank you for your support and good luck in future competitions.

Jim
 
Mr. Berg that may be true if he said something was broken or faulty, I believe his comment was that twenty people had what they thought was trouble! I have read twenty complaints on this forum about the said company but think it is just opinion and based of there preferences! I think this sport brings out strong opinions and loyalty to the products we use!! I think NF will win out to it's strongest competitor regardless because of service and product placement not to mention price point! If I had a suggestion for NightForce it would be to not discontinue any of there other products cause they fall in a price point and well received following!
 
This post goes round and round.
But no one has stated what went wrong with the scopes.
The only issue seems to be reticle choice and eye relief.
WHAT FAILED until that is answered this thread is a merry go round.
 
Thud said:
This post goes round and round.
But no one has stated what went wrong with the scopes.
The only issue seems to be reticle choice and eye relief.
WHAT FAILED until that is answered this thread is a merry go round.

Dont bother asking.... I did but did not get any smarter for asking.....

Ken
 
My 2 cents FWIW :

I run an F-Class forum in Australia that is quite small by comparison with this one. But as the moderator, I encounter the same issues in relation to how far posters can go in criticising products and services. On the one hand I owe it to the forum members to allow objective criticism of what are clearly bad companies or products. On the other I tend to be quite protective where criticism of individuals and small businesses occurs. Damage to a one man operation could be potentially disastrous for that individual's livelihood. The larger the company involved, the less acceptable it is to have substandard product and service, and the easier for them to defend themselves. In the case of companies like NF which has a large worldwide market share of high quality high magnification riflescopes, they are surely big and capable enough to see this criticism as a minor hiccup which their technical and publicity departments will soon put behind them. I certainly hope the suggestion of any legal action is just that. F-Class is an amateur sport enjoyed by most of us because of its relaxed and friendly nature. Let's keep it that way.

BTW my Sightron was fixed on 20X for the entire FCWC, and it was good enough for 7th (and I had some vertical at times).

Alan Fraser
Victoria Australia
 
I too heard people say that they thought their scopes went bad. If I heard it, I'm sure Jim Kelbly heard it too as he had a nice setup of March Scopes at the match. Sometimes people blame equipment for their bad performance, and weather it was the scope or not, I'm sure they were pretty pissed about it and told anyone that would listen, after all, some of these guys traveled around the World to shoot this match.

I saw a guy shoot next to me with a Sightron that he claimed would not track. He would dial windage on the scope and the bullet would end up somewhere else. Was it scope or wind switched while he turned knobs? Who knows, but he sure was cursing that scope.

Jim Kelbly did not say the scopes were bad, he said he heard of people having reliability problems with NF. I know of one guy that thinks his NF could have cost him the National Championship, maybe, maybe not, but all I know is be was beating on the competition real bad until that happened.

I have a few NXS scopes, I really like them. It's a shame NF did away with their best scope and replaced it with a "Competition" scope that really does not work for competition. But, I'm sure they will address some of the issues and maybe eventually come out with a scope better than the NXS.
 
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